Erdogan calls Dutch as well as Germans 'Nazis'

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The next on the list are the Swiss.

Just read that a Turkish politician gave a speech in Switzerland.

The Swiss were definitely not amused.

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Erdoğan is loving the reaction he's getting.  He's able to tell Turkish voters now, that European governments are actively on the side of the putschists and want to restore "tutelage" -- the term used in Erdoğanist circles for the overriding of the popular will through bureaucratic and military coups -- ie, that European governments are firmly on one side of an on-going class conflict in Turkey.  That's, like, a massive win for him.  The best thing has always been to let the ministers have their little shindigs and then go home.

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Well argued, EI. Can´t disagree. I wil add:  if some stupid Turkish citizens in the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland etc riot, pillage , let them go " home ". It should work both ways. If some stupid Turkish citizens in Turkey think his behaviour is acceptable on the international stage, well: fuck them ,too.

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This is the issue here: Western commentators seem to think that the referendum conflict is about a dictatorial Erdoğan versus a brave opposition of journalists and activists and Kurds.  Many Turks seem to think, however, that the referendum conflict is about limiting the ability of certain classes to dominate politics, often to the material neglect of other social classes, and that Erdoğan has been the instrument of a better distribution of power and influence in Turkish society -- and that the brave opposition is merely the catspaw of the "tutelage". 

 

Of course, Erdoğan is a corrupt autocrat.  The dilemma of many Turkish voters is that they must pick their poison: the autocracy of a hostile bureaucratic class or the autocracy of a guy with an underdog life story who seems to sympathize with them. 

 

There's some rough analogies to the Trump phenomenon.  It's possible, while absolutely rejecting the ideas that Trump has brought into focus, to understand the forces that brought him to power.  The same eye needs to be applied to Turkey, but European politicians are used to treating Turkey as a supplicant, and you don't pay attention to the emotional state of a supplicant.

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All that flagwaving at those meetings makes me feel sick. It's so reminiscent of .....

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3 minutes ago, john g. said:

Well argued, EI. Can´t disagree. I wil add:  if some stupid Turkish citizens in the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland etc riot, pillage , let them go " home ". It should work both ways. If some stupid Turkish citizens in Turkey think his behaviour is acceptable on the international stage, well: fuck them ,too.

 

I will reserve the discussion of deportation for another thread.  Instead, I will say that politics is (necessary) theatre, and the best thing to do is always to take the audience as it is.

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1 minute ago, john g. said:

I don´t mean deportation, EI..I mean: if the heart is elsewhere, go elsewhere.

 

This maybe easy for the likes of you and I, but not everyone.  Some people are not easily able to pick up stakes and make a living elsewhere where they might feel more comfortable, abandon family who may feel differently, etc.  Part of the resentment of (a part of!) the population of German Turks is precisely this feeling that they're not allowed to be who they are, where they are, without having to apologize for it. 

 

I remember when bramble wanted me to watch a video about a majority-Muslim (Turkish and Arab) school in Berlin and its pathologies.  I was skeptical about it at first, and then, without sharing the viewpoint of the narrators, I started to think it was quite good, actually.  What stuck out at me was the stereotypical Turkish macho, who proudly paraded his sexual double standard around, verily the nightmare of an immigration-skeptical but liberal German -- but then it turned out that he understood very well how he was perceived by German society, and his behaviour and attitudes were very much intended to be a challengeA challenge to the wider German society: that he had the right to be accepted as he was, first, in the place where he was born and lived and raised, and then he might start to reciprocate the favour.

 

That all is bound up in this Turkish referendum and the reaction to it from the governments in the EU. 

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50 minutes ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

  Part of the resentment of (a part of!) the population of German Turks is precisely this feeling that they're not allowed to be who they are, where they are, without having to apologize for it. 

And who is to blame for their lack of integration?

 

Regarding their support for Erdogan, it is more the case of glorification and romantification of the old country, in my opinion.

Many immigrants have it. And there are some of them, that I know, that also acted on these feeling and moved back to the old country.

Just to come back after a while, when they found that their romantic picture of the old country did not really correspond to the harsh reality.

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I wonder whether it's the 2nd generation Turks who are waving flags for the old country as the original immigrants left that country for a reason and would have gone back by now if they thought it was that good.

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27 minutes ago, klubbnika said:

And who is to blame for their lack of integration?

 

A combination of factors, including political choices by the host country.  But not only, of course.

 

27 minutes ago, klubbnika said:

 

Regarding their support for Erdogan, it is more the case of glorification and romantification of the old country, in my opinion.

Many immigrants have it. And there are some of them, that I know, that also acted on these feeling and moved back to the old country.

Just to come back after a while, when they found that their romantic picture of the old country did not really correspond to the harsh reality.

 

There is that too, of course.

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24 minutes ago, French bean said:

I wonder whether it's the 2nd generation Turks who are waving flags for the old country as the original immigrants left that country for a reason and would have gone back by now if they thought it was that good.

 

As I was telling john g., it's not so simple -- people live in places they don't necessarily like because they have jobs or other commitments there.  I have even read TTers complain that they're only in Germany because they have to be.

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27 minutes ago, French bean said:

I wonder whether it's the 2nd generation Turks who are waving flags for the old country as the original immigrants left that country for a reason and would have gone back by now if they thought it was that good.

Second generation has the worst glorification. They go there on vacation and get a royal treatment from the locals because they live in Europe and therefore have money, and they think that it's the normal thing for the old country.

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So now the Netherlands has created an even more dramatic scene by preventing the Turkish family and social services minister from entering her government's consulate in Rotterdam and creating the impression that she is being expelled from the Netherlands -- all for their election on Wednesday.  Erdoğan couldn't script this himself.  Apparently live TV. 

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3 minutes ago, klubbnika said:

Second generation has the worst glorification. They go there on vacation and get a royal treatment from the locals because they live in Europe and therefore have money, and they think that it's the normal thing for the old country.

 

3 minutes ago, klubbnika said:

 

I couldn't agree more.

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12 minutes ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

A combination of factors, including political choices by the host country.  But not only, of course.

 

But never theirs. Those folks are never to be blamed. It's all external forces trying to ruin their lives. Oh boohoo.

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1 minute ago, Erdmann said:

 

But never theirs. Those folks are never to be blamed. It's all external forces trying to ruin their lives. Oh boohoo.

 

At an individual level, one always has a choice.  When a tendency is repeated over some parts of a group, but not others, then the issue is not only individual choices.

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