Germans infertile?

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I understand what it is to be childless and to expect to stay that way. However, you're only infertile till you get pregnant. Took us over a decade to conceive just the once but finally it happened all on its own when I was 40 and had long since stopped expecting to be a mum. Never quite gave up hope though. Looking back I honestly think stress was Feind Nummer Eins.

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3 hours ago, optimista said:

I understand what it is to be childless and to expect to stay that way. However, you're only infertile till you get pregnant. Took us over a decade to conceive just the once but finally it happened all on its own when I was 40 and had long since stopped expecting to be a mum. Never quite gave up hope though. Looking back I honestly think stress was Feind Nummer Eins.

 

That's not the first I've heard of that happening.  Friends of my brothers had tried and tried and they eventually accepted that they wouldn't have kids and decided to buy a boat.  A year later, they were expecting.

 

Unfortunately it doesn't work out like that for everybody.  I knew a man in his 60's who ended up childless because they couldn't and he said it's a wound that never heals.  He should have been a grandpa by then if it had all worked out.

 

There are various reasons why people don't adopt.  In some cases, once they've tried naturally as well as a few rounds of IVF, they are too old.  Some people I know told me they have relatives in that situation and that it's very hard to adopt in Germany if both are over 40.

 

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On 11.3.2017, 22:56:56, john g. said:

Hm , Ted Heath was the Prime Minister in Britain in the 70s ( some of it ) and wasn´t with children/ married .

 

 

 

 

Scene from Love Actually (1:36)

 

 

:lol:

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36 minutes ago, Uncle Nick said:

 

Scene from Love Actually (1:36)

 

 

:lol:

This is one of the sweetest love stories ever.  No problems, no quarrels, and the contrast between the action and the dialogue is priceless.

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22 hours ago, Long Island Duckling said:

My German husband and I are childless.  Not by choice.  We tried for many years to have a baby.  We also did 5 IVF treatments here in Munich.  Sadly, nothing helped.

 

 

I am so sorry for you. When I was in the early throes of fatherhood (early days in the hospital) I was aware that there was a separate wing of Taxisklinik specially designated for the IVF families. It's an aspect of life I have no real idea about, thankfully having had two of my own. You have my sympathies.

 

People I know could not get children and I know they'd have been brilliant parents. However what they did was get themselves a gorgeous big dog. They are besotted with him, spend a fortune on training him, vets etc. Of course a dog isn't for everyone, but definitely some get them as substitutes for children. A lady we knew with a Malteser like ours openly confessed that her puppy was a child substitute. I don't think there is shame there. Our dog came just as your kids were getting older and I was feeling less needed. tbh I'm swamped at times but rather that than sitting bored and empty all day.

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On 13.3.2017, 01:12:40, LeonG said:

And why is it the right thing to do?

As I said before, I never had that experience nor had my wife ever told me of having felt frowned upon or been regarded a Rabenmutter.

 

On 13.3.2017, 01:12:40, LeonG said:

And what do you mean by "raising your children yourself" exactly?  Are people not raising their children themselves if they place them in day care while they work?  What about half days?  Not at all?  How about the occasional babysitter?  How much can you leave your children with other people before you are no longer raising them yourself?

To the extent you´re entrusting your kids to strangers you´re not raising them yourself. There isn´t only yes or no, the more you leave them with strangers the more you´re outsorcing the raising.That´s obvious I think. Half days for a baby would be too long for my liking as well. Grandparents or other relatives might be ok though, depending on the bond they have with the kids. And depending on the kid, of course. 

 

On 13.3.2017, 01:12:40, LeonG said:

And why is it the right thing to do?

For many reasons.

E. g. because you have more control about what they´ll be exposed to. What kind of norms, what kind of language etc. ? I´d have hated it if my kids had adopted the local dialect for instance. Plus I´m sure the average childcarer won´t have the level of languange competence as I had and wouldn´t have been able to expose my kids to the same vocabulary and awareness of their native language as I did.

E. g. because of the strength of the bond you´ll be forming and the "Urvertrauen" (basic sense of trust is a poor translation, I´m afraid) which will develop (or not) within the first 3 years of life?

E. g. because you can´t realistically expect strangers to have the same motivation as parents to promote your kids wellbeing and development?

E. g. because that´s how mother nature had planned it?

Not to forget because its so much fun and gives so much satisfaction.

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10 hours ago, jeba said:

E. g. because you have more control about what they´ll be exposed to. What kind of norms, what kind of language etc. ? I´d have hated it if my kids had adopted the local dialect for instance. Plus I´m sure the average childcarer won´t have the level of languange competence as I had and wouldn´t have been able to expose my kids to the same vocabulary and awareness of their native language as I did.

E. g. because of the strength of the bond you´ll be forming and the "Urvertrauen" (basic sense of trust is a poor translation, I´m afraid) which will develop (or not) within the first 3 years of life?

E. g. because you can´t realistically expect strangers to have the same motivation as parents to promote your kids wellbeing and development?

E. g. because that´s how mother nature had planned it?

Not to forget because its so much fun and gives so much satisfaction.

 

So maybe you were the better choice for your kids than daycare but is that really the case for all parents?  What if the parents language abilities or intellectual level is actually at a lower level than your average daycare worker?  Are the parents still a better option than the daycare?

 

Also, if a parent is forced to stay home with their kids because of societal pressure or other reasons, and this parent feels they are missing out as a result, I am sure their children are at some level feeling that.  I read some research years ago where they followed many families and they found that the children of stay home or working parents are happier if the parents are happy.  So maybe for you, raising children at home was eternal bliss 24/7 but it might not be eternal bliss for everybody.

 

In any case, my nephews and nieces seem to have grown up fine in spite of having seen the inside of daycare when they were small.  As for learning the local dialect, if your kids ended up going to school in that area, they would have learned it too. My sister managed to teach her kids Icelandic just by her and her husband speaking it to them.  Meanwhile, they were living in Sweden and the kids were going to Swedish daycare and school and speaking Swedish to each other.

 

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2 hours ago, LeonG said:

So maybe you were the better choice for your kids than daycare but is that really the case for all parents? What if the parents language abilities or intellectual level is actually at a lower level than your average daycare worker?  Are the parents still a better option than the daycare?

 

I´d say for most because I´m sure kids can sense whether they are around somebody who cares for them for love or for money. That has a lot to do with "Urvertrauen".

 

2 hours ago, LeonG said:

Also, if a parent is forced to stay home with their kids

Parents who have to be forced to look after their children shouldn´t be parents in the first place. I acknowledge the fact they do exist though just as I acknowledge that there are parents who are unfit to raise kids. Fortunately, that´s not the norm.

 

2 hours ago, LeonG said:

As for learning the local dialect, if your kids ended up going to school in that area, they would have learned it too.

No, they sometimes made it a play to intersperse some accent and check whether I realised it but they never adopted it.

 

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9 minutes ago, jeba said:

I´d say for most because I´m sure kids can sense whether they are around somebody who cares for them for love or for money. That has a lot to do with "Urvertrauen".

 

Parents who have to be forced to look after their children shouldn´t be parents in the first place. I acknowledge the fact they do exist though just as I acknowledge that there are parents who are unfit to raise kids. Fortunately, that´s not the norm.

 

Do you really believe that most parents desire to be stay home?  I think it's far from that.  From the people I know, there are some who would like to be stay home but there are plenty who prefer to work, even if it means the kids stay at daycare and your "urvertrauen" or not, after generations of this, somehow the kids still turn out fine. 

 

Not having the desire to stay home with their kids all day doesn't necessarily mean that the person is a bad parent during the time that they are taking care of their kids.  Your view is really the gist of the problem in Germany, why many people aren't having kids, because they feel it's a choice between having kids or working.  You are the person pointing the finger and saying "rabenmutter".

 

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17 minutes ago, LeonG said:

Do you really believe that most parents desire to be stay home? 

Yes, I do. In my neighbourhood there was no single family with kids unattended by their parents and I don´t think any of my neighbours stayed at home just because they felt forced to.

 

17 minutes ago, LeonG said:

 Your view is really the gist of the problem in Germany, why many people aren't having kids, because they feel it's a choice between having kids or working.  

In most cases (unless you have a job where your kids can join you at work) it is that choice.

17 minutes ago, LeonG said:

You are the person pointing the finger and saying "rabenmutter".

Yes, or Rabenvater. Unless it´s unavoidable. If progress means outsourcing your kids than I´d rather be retarded.

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@jeba You sound like a snob.

 

I was a stay-at-home mother with two kids (grils and boy) up until they were about 10. Still, I sent them to kindergarten at three because I believe kids benefit from being together with other kids other than their own siblings. And what about the kids growing up as an only child? Or sisters who only have sisters - brothers who only have brothers? 

 

Going back to our origins, humans lived in close-knit groups and children were taken care of by the group. That's the natural way. Not the small family units of today. Kids learn from each other and from other adults. And Kindergarten offers the space and the activities a small family unit can't offer. And they are allowed to be loud. At home you always have to think of the neighbours. 

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I never spoke out against Kindergarten. I was talking only about kids below the Kindergarten age. I sent my kids to Kindergarten as well.

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I'm sorry if I have misunderstood you. Your posts come across that way.

 

As far as the bonding is concerned, I was a daycare "mum" myself to a baby boy up until he was two years old many years ago and he knew exactly who his mother was. The father was a doctor working in a hospital, the mother was a teacher. He could certainly differentiate, although I changed his nappies, gave him his bottle, fed him in his high chair, nursed him to sleep, comforted him, played with him during the day. I took care of him from 7:00 in the morning til 14:00 hrs in the afternoon 5 days a week. Do you know how I could tell? His mother started to complain that I spoilt him too much as he would niggle and demand her attention too much while she was trying to mark school work etc., which he didn't do with me. She wanted me to ignore him more often. Well, I wasn't spoiling him in the least, he could occupy himself very well, while I was doing something else. I explained to her that her child is naturally doing what other kids constantly do with their mothers. My kids did it too. Even if it is annoying, she should see his niggling as a good sign that her child knows exactly who his real mother is despite being looked after by someone else half the time. They niggle and demand attention all the time from their real mothers, which they don't do so much with other adults. My granddaughter was the same. She was as good as gold with me, but not so much with her mother. I think it's instinct. A child seems to know it's safe to be in a bad mood with mother, but maybe not with someone else. Sadly this is not the case for some unfortunate children, for whom then the Jugendamt has to come to the rescue.  

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Jeba, whatever choice you decide to raise your kids is fine but judging others for their choices is just snobbery. Beside, all your judgment is only based on the first three years of the child's life. Based on your judgment, I know someone who's better than you, she doesn't send her kid to kindergarten at all, she raised him at home for the whole first six years. Is that your ideal? Well, what she's doing instead is putting the kid to practice piano for six hours everyday. Is that still better?

And what about your wife? She's the one who worked through those first three years. Is she a rabenmutter then? Your judgment knows no bounds.

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3 hours ago, desdemona said:

Jeba, whatever choice you decide to raise your kids is fine but judging others for their choices is just snobbery

My point of view is not based on the desire of judging others, but on my conviction of what is in the best interest of kids. Would you blame me for snobbery if I advocated that e. g. dogowners should exercise their dogs at least twice a day (which btw is indeed another conviction of mine). I don´t know how I can keep on living with that accusation - but I´ll give it a try ;)

 

3 hours ago, desdemona said:

Based on your judgment, I know someone who's better than you, she doesn't send her kid to kindergarten at all,

As I stated in this and other threads you chimed in I never spoke out against kindergarten - quite the contrary.

 

3 hours ago, desdemona said:

And what about your wife? She's the one who worked through those first three years. Is she a rabenmutter then?

Why would she have been that - she loved our kids to bits. It doesn´t matter whether mom or dad is the primary caregiver. It might even be another relative (e. g. grandparents) as long as there is that special bond kids won´t usually have with someone who is paid to look after them. I never said both parents should stay at home. It´s not as if I didn´t understand that you need to be able to provide for food and housing, you know.

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19 minutes ago, jeba said:

My point of view is not based on the desire of judging others, but on my conviction of what is in the best interest of MY kids.

 

Fixed it for ya.

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23 hours ago, jeba said:

To the extent you´re entrusting your kids to strangers you´re not raising them yourself. There isn´t only yes or no, the more you leave them with strangers the more you´re outsorcing the raising.That´s obvious I think.

But we also outsource kids' schooling.

Why would it be bad to outsource the eduction during the pre-school time but completely fine to do it from the age of 6?

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1 hour ago, klubbnika said:

But we also outsource kids' schooling.

Why would it be bad to outsource the eduction during the pre-school time but completely fine to do it from the age of 6?

As I repeatedly stated I wasn´t talking about preschool time (as in age 3-6) but of pre-Kindergarten time as in age 0-3.

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The biological ability to give birth to children does not ensure good parenthood IMHO. The world is full of all sorts of parents, some personality disordered, some not very empathetic etc who escape clinical diagnosis or do no come to social services level but still leave their trace on the attachment styles of their children. Children may get weaknesses and strengths from various types of parents. Likewise, the world is full of  foster-parents or caring people who make children experience such love. I think it really is random.

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1 hour ago, jeba said:

As I repeatedly stated I wasn´t talking about preschool time (as in age 3-6) but of pre-Kindergarten time as in age 0-3.

Then why is it bad to outsource pre-kindergarten?

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