Germans infertile?

217 posts in this topic

18 minutes ago, More tea, Vicar? said:

 

Looks like this woman manages to juggle everything: professional life, political life as the leader of a right-wing populist reactionary party, love life and family life in one.

 

She gives me the heeby-jeebies does Frau Petry.

 

Just because she has all these things going on doesn't mean she's good at all of them.

Anyway it would be unrealistic to dream it, much less expect it. 

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On 3/12/2017, 11:55:57, jeba said:

Why? Dads can stay as home just as well as mothers. Look at Jeremy or myself. But if raising your children yourself is retarded nowadays then so be it. It´s the right thing to do.

 

 

Gosh I hadn't realised you had worked at the coalface. Or rather the pooface.

 

On 3/12/2017, 2:34:16, jeba said:

Nobody is forced to stick to the traditional role model. It´s a choice. And if couples choose the mother to stay at home - whats wrong with it. I never was under the impression that someone was looking down on me because I stayed at home.

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I reckon on looking back - mine ar 11 and 13 - that Germany overall was a great place to raise small kids. It has become unsafe since 2015, but that's a thread elsewhere - the usual R word. I am really glad I brought them up here and not my small town in Wales - the ladies here were accepting, but noone mixed with me much. i was tremendously lonely and tbh I am so glad the kindergarten years are over - those awful fests were a drag trying to be sociable to mums who never spoke to me.

 

On 3/12/2017, 2:52:09, klubbnika said:

There is plenty of stigmatization of working mothers and stay at homes dads. Just because you haven't experienced that doesnt mean it doesn't exist.

Even some of the self-proclaimed "progressives" here on the forum (yes, I am talking about you, El Jeffo) were making fun of stay at home dads.

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Yup. I have been attacked by the Jeff. Said more about him than me, so am not exactly bothered. 

 

 

2 hours ago, More tea, Vicar? said:

I used to joke with my wife that I would happily quit work and stay at home if her salary alone could support us.  Then I realised how tough it is being with a toddler at home all day.  And I am a hands-on dad.  I have been flying abroad with him alone since he was tiny, and I look after him all weekend and put him to bed and take him to school.

 

I think you need to be a special dad to be able to bring up a child full-time.  Or you need a wife that earns a whack, whatever the current state of feminist discourse in the modern German workplace may be . . . . .

 

 

I did it, and yes it was absolutely rough as hell a load of the time. But a decade on, I'm damn well enjoying my easier years now, I really am. They are older, more independent, the neighbour kids don't hassle me anymore like they used to (we never ever had any peace) - they are lovely teenagers to know - and I enjoy my moments in the sun so so much now. I absolutely earned every minute of these easier times. The loneliness was crushing, the lack of a clue what to do, and the social isolation on those dark days was beyond painful. But now it is wonderful so I enjoy it loads.

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9 hours ago, cb6dba said:

Please provide pfoof to back this up. To make  the claim that a whole area finds another area retarded is going a little far isn't it?

Exactly what "pfoof" would you like to see from me?

 

I was talking about things in comparative perspective. Of course Germany is much more advanced than most of the countries in the world.

But then there are countries where Germany is considered retarded in this particular area, that is seen from those countries' perspective.

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4 hours ago, More tea, Vicar? said:

 

Looks like this woman manages to juggle everything: professional life, political life as the leader of a right-wing populist reactionary party, love life and family life in one.

 

She gives me the heeby-jeebies does Frau Petry.

Why would it matter what party she is a leader of?

Are you saying that being a party leader for some parties is a piece of cake?

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I dunno.  My take is that Germans appear to be a bit more thoughtful about the prospect of having kids. 

 

I find it interesting that often the conversation is about "why are those people not having kids?!" as opposed to "why ARE those people having kids?"  Both are equally valid questions, and more often than not, with Americans at least, people who don't have kids by choice can at least provide a cogent explanation (often, surprisingly enough, it's not about wanting to take more vacations) while the ones having kids are simply deer in the headlights stunned that anyone could even think to ask such a question.  IE they have no cogent reason for having kids.  Maybe they throw out something like "I want someone I can mold and guide through life" or "I want someone to carry on the family name" or "it's just what you are supposed to do" or "I want it all".  My favorite is "I want someone to be there for me when I am old".  Again, these are things I've heard from Americans. 

 

That is not to say one NEEDs a cogent reason to reproduce, but the point is, people who have kids are basically never questioned for their choices, while those who don't are often questioned throughout life.  So how about starting a thread for "why did you have kids?"  Not retroactively what do you like about having kids, but why did you DECIDE to have kids, before you had any?  I think that would be damned interesting. 

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Agree with Lisa. So often, some assume there is a medical problem or  one partner does not want children.   Maybe their life style choices just do not include a lifetime of children.  Of course, then some will comment on their selfishness!

 

 

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4 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

That is not to say one NEEDs a cogent reason to reproduce, but the point is, people who have kids are basically never questioned for their choices, while those who don't are often questioned throughout life.  So how about starting a thread for "why did you have kids?"  Not retroactively what do you like about having kids, but why did you DECIDE to have kids, before you had any?  I think that would be damned interesting. 

It's much more normal to have kids than not to have, therefore the surprise.

 

Kids is the insurance you have for your old age.

And then some people just have sex and get pregnant.

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4 minutes ago, RedMidge said:

Agree with Lisa. So often, some assume there is a medical problem or  one partner does not want children.   Maybe their life style choices just do not include a lifetime of children.  Of course, then some will comment on their selfishness!

 

 

Having children is also selfish. :)

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1 minute ago, klubbnika said:

It's much more normal to have kids than not to have, therefore the surprise.

 

Kids is the insurance you have for your old age.

And then some people just have sex and get pregnant.

Maybe insurance in some poorer countries. But no guarantee they will help you in old age!! These days, we are all so spread out from families, and not easy  to drop everything and rush to their side.  Often posts from  members-   failing relative-  should I fly over now, wait till they are at death's door, can I afford the flight etc.  Some have little contact with family. So, "Insurance" is perhaps optimistic!  And many of us have experienced the stress, pressure and grief of coping with elderly parents.

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8 minutes ago, klubbnika said:

It's much more normal to have kids than not to have, therefore the surprise.

 

Kids is the insurance you have for your old age.

And then some people just have sex and get pregnant.

exactly, both of which strike ME as VERY questionable reasons for having kids ;)

 

And RedMidge, I want to again point out that this idea that not having kids boils down to a "lifestyle" choice is really disingenuous.  I would say 95% of the childless people I know chose NOT to have kids as they were just too fearful that they would not be able to ensure their kids would have a really really good life, for whatever reason.

 

Again, these were not Germans - I have no idea why some Germans don't want to have kids as I don't ask, it's none of my freaking business - but the point is, it's not always about a "selfish" lifestyle choice, or even a lifestyle choice at all.

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2 minutes ago, RedMidge said:

Maybe insurance in some poorer countries. But no guarantee they will help you in old age!! These days, we are all so spread out from families, and not easy  to drop everything and rush to their side.  Often posts from  members-   failing relative-  should I fly over now, wait till they are at death's door, can I afford the flight etc.  Some have little contact with family. So, "Insurance" is perhaps optimistic!  And many of us have experienced the stress, pressure and grief of coping with elderly parents.

In the poorer countries it's a direct insurance while in the wealthier it is an indirect one.

Maybe your own kids will not help you personally when you get old but the other's kids will, via taxes. :)

 

Then, someone needs to continue to produce goods and services even when you are not able to do it physically, and yours and somebody else's kids will do that too.

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Just now, lisa13 said:

 A lifestyle choice of no children is not selfish to me

exactly, both of which strike ME as VERY questionable reasons for having kids ;)

 

And RedMidge, I want to again point out that this idea that not having kids boils down to a "lifestyle" choice is really disingenuous.  I would say 95% of the childless people I know chose NOT to have kids as they were just too fearful that they would not be able to ensure their kids would have a really really good life, for whatever reason.

 

Again, these were not Germans - I have no idea why some Germans don't want to have kids as I don't ask, it's none of my freaking business - but the point is, it's not always about a "selfish" lifestyle choice.

 Like Lisa, I do not agree that it is selfish  to choose to be childless, because of lifestyle choices.   It is all about a woman's choice, and  partner, whether they want to have children.  For many, they have a career,  interesting life, interests, and  may have little  maternal  instinct! 

I  think some are afraid to bring children into the world, but  do not think it is 95%. I have many childless friends in several countries, so have heard many opinions

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of course.  I am talking about americans though, where very few in the communities I moved in were childless.  This is admittedly not a large sample ;)  Note I said 95% of the people *I* knew.  not 95% of the childless population.

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eh...slightly "funny" (not) story...a family member and his wife came up with an elaborate story about how they were trying to get preggers the natural way but had no luck, and they didn't want to have medical intervention or even find out WHO might be less fertile as they were worried it would cause resentment or so...I found out years later it was all a ruse.  They were simply in a sexless marriage.  They adopted a kid anyway.

 

it's not always rewarding to get to bottom of things.  I'm going to go crawl under my bed now :)

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1 hour ago, RedMidge said:

  Often posts from  members-   failing relative-  should I fly over now, wait till they are at death's door, can I afford the flight etc.  Some have little contact with family. So, "Insurance" is perhaps optimistic!  And many of us have experienced the stress, pressure and grief of coping with elderly parents.

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Yep. On TT when you have had "The Call" you are in the Call Club. Worst membership to have.

 

51 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

eh...slightly "funny" (not) story...a family member and his wife came up with an elaborate story about how they were trying to get preggers the natural way but had no luck, and they didn't want to have medical intervention or even find out WHO might be less fertile as they were worried it would cause resentment or so...I found out years later it was all a ruse.  They were simply in a sexless marriage.  They adopted a kid anyway.

 

it's not always rewarding to get to bottom of things.  I'm going to go crawl under my bed now :)

 

 

There is of course the Saudi couple who went to the doctor multiple times, had lots of counselling, but still couldn't get children. It was after they asked exactly what they were doing that the reason was established.

 

He had been putting it in the wrong hole.

 

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..belongs in the recently reopened " what made you laugh " thread:

 

lisa13:  " it´s not always rewarding to get to (the ) " bottom " of things..

 

Jeremy :  erm, well, your story about the Saudi couple!:lol:

 

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omg I'm in tears...yes, belongs on the made me laugh thread

 

sounds like the saudi couple had some reward at the bottom...I'm guessing he did at the *very* least ;) 

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31 minutes ago, john g. said:

..belongs in the recently reopened " what made you laugh " thread:

 

lisa13:  " it´s not always rewarding to get to (the ) " bottom " of things..

 

Jeremy :  erm, well, your story about the Saudi couple!:lol:

 

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Just now, lisa13 said:

omg I'm in tears...yes, belongs on the made me laugh thread

 

sounds like the saudi couple had some reward at the bottom...I'm guessing he did at the *very* least ;) 

 

 

Basically...from the moment you touch down on Arabian sand in 110 degree August heat at 6am, until five years later when you get your "Exit Only", the place is full of stories like that.

 

Especially if you spend a lot of time with expat nurses as I used to. Not a lot shocks afterwards.

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