Germans infertile?

217 posts in this topic

11 hours ago, klubbnika said:

Why do having kids need to be a career kill?

 

You haven't noticed?  When a friends wife explained to me before I moved here that a mother is expected to stay at home and take care of her children or at most work part time at the bakery I was like oh, so that's like back home in the early 70's.  Wait, you didn't have women's lib in Germany?  And apparently they didn't because in the North where I live and apparently even more so in the South, women are considered bad mothers if they continue working full time after having children and they get to hear it.  Therefore, many women feel like they must choose between a career and kids.

 

My friends wife maintains that she did not go to university to become a stay home mom and hence she works and she goes on business trips and she gets to hear snide remarks in the cafeteria about how some people probably shouldn't have had kids if they weren't going to stay home with them.

 

Although things are changing (slowly), it is hard in many places to find day care, let alone full time day care and after the kids start school, sometimes it's even worse.  I was working with a mom at some point whose 7 yo. was starting school some days at 8 and some at 9 and some days was done as early as 11 am.  How do you plan a work schedule around that?  It is not unheard of either to send the kids home if a teacher is sick.

 

My friends manage because the wife's parents are retired, living across the street and ready to look after the kids as needed. Currently the  parents drop the kid off at kita, the older one goes to school and the grandparents pick them up early afternoon and keep them until the parents come home.

 

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5 hours ago, desdemona said:

Ha, high income countries have average birth rate 1.7, low income 4.8. As expected. 

I was talking about the birth curve pointing down. :)

It does it even in Afghanistan.

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2 hours ago, LeonG said:

 

You haven't noticed?  When a friends wife explained to me before I moved here that a mother is expected to stay at home and take care of her children or at most work part time at the bakery I was like oh, so that's like back home in the early 70's.  Wait, you didn't have women's lib in Germany?  And apparently they didn't because in the North where I live and apparently even more so in the South, women are considered bad mothers if they continue working full time after having children and they get to hear it.  Therefore, many women feel like they must choose between a career and kids.

 

My friends wife maintains that she did not go to university to become a stay home mom and hence she works and she goes on business trips and she gets to hear snide remarks in the cafeteria about how some people probably shouldn't have had kids if they weren't going to stay home with them.

 

Although things are changing (slowly), it is hard in many places to find day care, let alone full time day care and after the kids start school, sometimes it's even worse.  I was working with a mom at some point whose 7 yo. was starting school some days at 8 and some at 9 and some days was done as early as 11 am.  How do you plan a work schedule around that?  It is not unheard of either to send the kids home if a teacher is sick.

 

My friends manage because the wife's parents are retired, living across the street and ready to look after the kids as needed. Currently the  parents drop the kid off at kita, the older one goes to school and the grandparents pick them up early afternoon and keep them until the parents come home.

 

 

Back where I am from Germany is considered retarded in terms of women's opportunities, just becauase of what you described.

 

My question was, however, rethoric. :)

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4 hours ago, klubbnika said:

Back where I am from Germany is considered retarded in terms of women's opportunities, just becauase of what you described.

Why? Dads can stay as home just as well as mothers. Look at Jeremy or myself. But if raising your children yourself is retarded nowadays then so be it. It´s the right thing to do.

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2 hours ago, jeba said:

Why? Dads can stay as home just as well as mothers. Look at Jeremy or myself. But if raising your children yourself is retarded nowadays then so be it. It´s the right thing to do.

Paternity leave is not long enough and kindergartens are few. The women are expected to take care of the kids and men expected to be main breadwinners which makes women economically dependent on men. Traditional attitudes to childrearing prevail and that is not considered progressive because it leaves the women in a disadvantaged position.

 

BTW, did not know you were on parternity leave. Thought you were close to the retirement.

 

 

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1 minute ago, klubbnika said:

Paternity leave is not long enough

I had 6 years for 2 children. The same as any woman would get. So that statement is just wrong.

 

2 minutes ago, klubbnika said:

The women are expected to take care of the kids and men expected to be main breadwinners which makes women economically dependent on men. Traditional attitudes to childrearing prevail and that is not considered progressive because it leaves the women in a disadvantaged position.

Nobody is forced to stick to the traditional role model. It´s a choice. And if couples choose the mother to stay at home - whats wrong with it. I never was under the impression that someone was looking down on me because I stayed at home.

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21 minutes ago, jeba said:

I had 6 years for 2 children. The same as any woman would get. So that statement is just wrong.

Were all 6 years paid?

I am talking about paid parental leave.

 

21 minutes ago, jeba said:

Nobody is forced to stick to the traditional role model. It´s a choice. And if couples choose the mother to stay at home - whats wrong with it. I never was under the impression that someone was looking down on me because I stayed at home.

It's a choice under duress of different kinds.

 

There is plenty of stigmatization of working mothers and stay at homes dads. Just because you haven't experienced that doesnt mean it doesn't exist.

Even some of the self-proclaimed "progressives" here on the forum (yes, I am talking about you, El Jeffo) were making fun of stay at home dads.

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30 minutes ago, klubbnika said:

Were all 6 years paid?

That was 20 years ago, there was no payment for either mom or dad.

 

30 minutes ago, klubbnika said:

There is plenty of stigmatization of working mothers and stay at homes dads. Just because you haven't experienced that doesnt mean it doesn't exist.

Even some of the self-proclaimed "progressives" here on the forum (yes, I am talking about you, El Jeffo) were making fun of stay at home dads.

I don´t think that dads who want to stay at home will be deterred by the occasional eyebrow-raising or joke.

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I agree with other points- the more educated, equal and affluent society becomes, more women choose to have fewer children, or none. ( And yes,  in general it is the woman's choice)

 There are some  research studies into declining fertility, but  much of  this   reduced    baby numbers is by choice.

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4 minutes ago, RedMidge said:

I agree with other points- the more educated, equal and affluent society becomes, more women choose to have fewer children, or none. ( And yes,  in general it is the woman's choice)

 There are some  research studies into declining fertility, but  much of  this   reduced    baby numbers is by choice.

 

This is very true indeed. People often forget that pregnancy and childbirth are still even in medically advanced societies risky. You can still have lifechanging injuries or risk death.

 

I think choice is a luxury we have in our society.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, jeba said:

That was 20 years ago, there was no payment for either mom or dad.

Exactly what they complained about when they said Germany was retarded.

 

20 minutes ago, jeba said:

I don´t think that dads who want to stay at home will be deterred by the occasional eyebrow-raising or joke.

Those who are hell-bent on it, no, but those you would like to try and see will be.

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25 minutes ago, RedMidge said:

I agree with other points- the more educated, equal and affluent society becomes, more women choose to have fewer children, or none. ( And yes,  in general it is the woman's choice)

 There are some  research studies into declining fertility, but  much of  this   reduced    baby numbers is by choice.

In Germany yes. But not in Scandinavia.

They have relatively high fertility rates compared to other countries in Europe.

It is possible to have it all, given the conditions are created.

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BTW, @jeba, I really admire you for staying at home with your kids, especially 20 years ago. :)

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12 hours ago, jeba said:

Why? Dads can stay as home just as well as mothers. Look at Jeremy or myself. But if raising your children yourself is retarded nowadays then so be it. It´s the right thing to do.

 

I doubt that the snide remarks my friend's wife hears at the cafeteria at work would stop if her husband were taking care of the kids vs. grandparents + day care.  Germans just seem to be a bit behind most other western countries when it comes to equality. For many people, it still has to be the mom who takes care of them and she's still considered a rabenmutter for working whether her husband is a stay home or not.

 

And what do you mean by "raising your children yourself" exactly?  Are people not raising their children themselves if they place them in day care while they work?  What about half days?  Not at all?  How about the occasional babysitter?  How much can you leave your children with other people before you are no longer raising them yourself?

 

And why is it the right thing to do?

 

I don't have kids myself but I have loads of nieces and nephews and many of them were in daycare and some were not.  They are almost all grown up now and I don't really see any difference between the ones who were and ones who weren't in happiness, being well adjusted, successful etc.  The ones who were in day care as well as the ones who were not, don't hesitate to send their own children to day care either.

 

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On 3/11/2017, 1:57:00, engelchen said:

 

Working mothers are not stigmatised in Canada the way they are here (Rabenmutter). Furthermore, the school day is longer, which makes childcare less of an issue.

Are you sure about that?  My experience is like that of @desdemona where working mothers are seen just like working fathers except if they're constantly out of the house and paying no attention to their children.  In addition to that working part time in Germany is a lot more common than in Canada where with the exception of retail you're either told to work 40+ hours a week or to go fuck yourself (but this you are told in a polite manner).  The difference I think is that Germans are a lot more direct than Canadians.  A German will tell you upon front what he thinks whereas a Canadian will beat around the bush with a smiley face.  In other words a Canadian stabs you in the back and a German stabs you in the front. :D

 

On 3/11/2017, 5:17:13, Conquistador said:

FYI, my experience has been that there is also hostility towards fathers in the workplace if they take parental leave, need to adjust their schedule, or have to pick up their kids. In my department of twelve, only four of us has kids, and only I have more than two. The hostility, BTW, came from the boss (who has kids) and his sycophant (also two), and neither of them plays as active a role in their kids' life as I do in mine.

How old are the boss' kids?  We'll see when they become teenagers and start having problems with drugs, school, etc how your boss will react.  Probably with a lecture "on responsibility", "accountability", "the future", "getting ahead in the corporate world" all of which will go in through one ear and go out through another because he simply didn't pay any attention to his kids.  Parenting starts at an early age and if you're never there for your kids because you needed to complete those TPS reports so the boss sees how dedicated you are then you can't expect your kids to listen to you.

 

On 3/11/2017, 5:30:41, Anna66 said:

Just a thought, but I know in Germany there is not enough selenium and iodine in the soil which can lead to Hypothryroidism. I know a lot of people who have issues with their thyroid gland here in Germany. It is well known that an underactive thyroid gland can cause issues with fertility.

Hmmm good thing I wasn't raised in Germany. ^_^

 

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On 3/12/2017, 7:19:30, klubbnika said:

 

Back where I am from Germany is considered retarded in terms of women's opportunities, just becauase of what you described.

 

My question was, however, rethoric. :)

Please provide pfoof to back this up. To make  the claim that a whole area finds another area retarded is going a little far isn't it?

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17 hours ago, RedMidge said:

I agree with other points- the more educated, equal and affluent society becomes, more women choose to have fewer children, or none. ( And yes,  in general it is the woman's choice)

 There are some  research studies into declining fertility, but  much of  this   reduced    baby numbers is by choice.

True but unless you're talking about Tesla most of these childless people leave nothing behind and their genes die out.  Also declining birth rates is a sign of a declining civilization no matter how educated and affluent the civilization considers itself to be.  It happened to Ancient Greece and Rome in the 3rd century B.C. and 3rd century A.D. respectively.

 

On 3/11/2017, 4:47:34, klubbnika said:

Why do having kids need to be a career kill?

 

It really depends on what your career is.  If you're a software developer or some sort of marketing analyst and want to remain in that position for your entire working life and just get better at it then it's completely idiotic for anybody to suggest that having kids will kill this kind of career.  Sorry but anybody who suggests that making a modest 70,000 Euros per annum is worth not having kids for is aiming far too low.  However if want to be a C-level executive or a senior V.P., a high leadership position that requires a lot of time and travelling, then you will need a supportive spouse to take care of the kids who doesn't work at all or at least works less than 20 hours a week.  Sure both spouses can become executives, have kids and then delegate the parenting to nannies but if you never see your kids then don't be surprised if problems that you can't fix start appearing when they're in their teens.

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On ‎11‎.‎03‎.‎2017‎ ‎23‎:‎02‎:‎34, jeremy said:

 

Yeah, John, he loved kids. So much so that he gave them one wy trips on his boat the Morning Cloud.

 

As for infertile, poppycock. I met the woman I own, got mine in whilst very drunk, wiggled it about till it went off and at least twice something came out.

 

Can't get them back in though and it's been over a decade since, sadly.

 

I was just about to submit my reply and then I saw jeremy's response (!)

 

That's cos he was a kiddy-fiddler john!

 

(Not me, the papers.)

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On ‎11‎.‎03‎.‎2017‎ ‎21‎:‎51‎:‎19, klubbnika said:

:)

 

Looks like this woman manages to juggle everything: professional life, political life, love life and family life in one.

 

Looks like this woman manages to juggle everything: professional life, political life as the leader of a right-wing populist reactionary party, love life and family life in one.

 

She gives me the heeby-jeebies does Frau Petry.

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12 hours ago, LeonG said:

 

I doubt that the snide remarks my friend's wife hears at the cafeteria at work would stop if her husband were taking care of the kids vs. grandparents + day care.  Germans just seem to be a bit behind most other western countries when it comes to equality. For many people, it still has to be the mom who takes care of them and she's still considered a rabenmutter for working whether her husband is a stay home or not.

 

And what do you mean by "raising your children yourself" exactly?  Are people not raising their children themselves if they place them in day care while they work?  What about half days?  Not at all?  How about the occasional babysitter?  How much can you leave your children with other people before you are no longer raising them yourself?

 

And why is it the right thing to do?

 

I don't have kids myself but I have loads of nieces and nephews and many of them were in daycare and some were not.  They are almost all grown up now and I don't really see any difference between the ones who were and ones who weren't in happiness, being well adjusted, successful etc.  The ones who were in day care as well as the ones who were not, don't hesitate to send their own children to day care either.

 

 

Maybe its just me, but I swear my boy interacts better with other little ones because he is used to it from Kita and Kindergarten.  His Kindergarten friends are really important to him, and they enrich his life.

 

I feel sorry for kids at home with their mom for three years.  Seems a bit too intense for me.  (I am not saying stay-at-home moms don't take their kids to friends, btw.  But I do think a few hours of playgroup or park-time is incomparable to a few full days a week at the Kita.)

 

I used to joke with my wife that I would happily quit work and stay at home if her salary alone could support us.  Then I realised how tough it is being with a toddler at home all day.  And I am a hands-on dad.  I have been flying abroad with him alone since he was tiny, and I look after him all weekend and put him to bed and take him to school.

 

I think you need to be a special dad to be able to bring up a child full-time.  Or you need a wife that earns a whack, whatever the current state of feminist discourse in the modern German workplace may be . . . . .

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