Germans infertile?

217 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, desdemona said:

It's not like people become caregiver for the money. 

I wouldn´t be so sure about that. And I wouldn´t want to try it out with my own children.

 

7 hours ago, desdemona said:

There's also such thing as bad parents and bad grandparents, unfortunately

No doubt, but will those be ware of it? If only those would entrust their kids to caregivers who can do better I wouldn´t have an issue.

 

7 hours ago, desdemona said:

Most of child abuse are done by the family members.

What are you trying to say with that? Firstly, that´s unrelated and secondly it would probably change if the majority of kids childcare were outsourced.

 

7 hours ago, desdemona said:

So you can't throw a blanket judgment that family is good and caregivers are bad. Love can be given by anyone

I admit that in some cases, e. g. problematic parents it may be the better option. But in general I think parent´s will love their children more than strangers would.

 

7 hours ago, desdemona said:

Their distant cousin stayed home until three. Guess who developed to be well-rounded, loving, smart and happy children? 

All of them.

That doesn´t mean much. Kids don´t necessarily need to have optimal circumstances to develop as nature provides them with quite some capability of managing suboptimal conditions. That doesn´t mean you shouldn´t try to create optimal conditions.

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You're so against caregivers yet you put your kids under their care as soon as they turn three. Is there a switch somewhere in the kids' brain that flips by their third birthdays? Three is not exactly so far off from babyhood. They're still little toddlers. Some are still in diapers. Speech development is not done yet. In some other countries they put the kids in kindergarten at five years old. Based on that standard all German kids are lacking their Urvertrauen with their parents because the kindergarten here starts way too early. But that's not the case, is it? Because a bond between parents and children continue to develop anyway, whether the kids are in the Kita before three or not. 

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13 minutes ago, desdemona said:

You're so against caregivers yet you put your kids under their care as soon as they turn three. Is there a switch somewhere in the kids' brain that flips by their third birthdays?

I´m not gainst caregivers per se, I´m against parents not being around as much as possible for the very young ones. At some point the benefits of e. g. kindergarden justify the temporary separation from parents. Whether "some point" means at the age of 3 years or 2 years and 10 months or 3 years and 4 months obviously depends on the individual child. As a rule of thumb my daughters child psychotherapist (who she saw after her mom died when she was 6) said Urvertrauen develops mainly within the first 3 years so at least she had had her around in those first years. That´s why 3 years seem like a good age for me to start letting loose.

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On 15.3.2017, 13:49:25, RedMidge said:

Sorry to hear you are mourning  your childless state. It is a very real grief and sometimes  counselling can help.  I am not saying you  will not still mourn, but it may help you get through the stages and  cope with some acceptance.

 

 

Thanks, RedMidge.  I tried therapy, but I guess I didn´t find the right therapist.  The one I had kept telling me to basically be happy I couldn´t have children because who knows what they could have turned out like, maybe criminals, or drug addicts, or perhaps with serious illnesses.  That did not help me at all.  I stopped going to this therapist and haven´t found a new one yet.  I´m still trying to muddle through the grief on my own.

 

Thanks to everyone who wrote kind, caring thoughts for me here.  I appreciate it.

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On 15.3.2017, 14:43:07, More tea, Vicar? said:

 

 

That is a sad story LID, thanks for sharing.  I understand IVF is awful.

 

You are in the perfect position to give an educational answer to the following (ignorant) basic question:

 

Did you adopt, and if not, why not?

 

No, we didn´t adopt, though I certainly wanted to.  If you are over 40, you are no longer eligible to adopt in Germany.  Period.  We were 43 when we gave up on IVF and ICSI.  There may be tons of kids here in Germany that need a good home, but the rules are the rules and we were simply too old.  I´ve pretty much given up being upset about it by now.

 

In order to adopt in a foreign country, you need to have a lot of money.  I´m talking like around 30,000 Euros or dollars, usually more.  My husband and I didn´t have this kind of money.  And so, since I´m neither Madonna nor Angelina Jolie, we couldn´t adopt.  It is so bitter, because there are so many children who need a good home and here we are wanting to give a child regardless of its origin or skin color a loving home with parents who would be absolutely thrilled to have this child.  But unfortunately, we are not rich enough to adopt.

 

A lot of people do not realize that adoption is a business.  If you have the money, you get the kid.  If you don´t, you´re out of luck.  There is also a strict screening process involved that can take years as well, but in the end, it comes down to having the money.  It´s really very sad.  And even in China, the agencies won´t adopt to parents over the age of 40.  So we lost out.  Big time.

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10 minutes ago, Long Island Duckling said:

A lot of people do not realize that adoption is a business.  If you have the money, you get the kid.  If you don´t, you´re out of luck.  There is also a strict screening process involved that can take years as well, but in the end, it comes down to having the money.  It´s really very sad.  And even in China, the agencies won´t adopt to parents over the age of 40.  So we lost out.  Big time.

Have you considered fostering a child? I know 2 women (one of them is definitely beyond 40) who are doing just that. She is even paid by the youth authorities, so money isn´t a problem. The main problem seems to me that you have no guarantee that you can keep the child permanently depending o the reasons why it needs fosterparents.

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On 16.3.2017, 09:43:43, jeremy said:

 

I am so sorry for you. When I was in the early throes of fatherhood (early days in the hospital) I was aware that there was a separate wing of Taxisklinik specially designated for the IVF families. It's an aspect of life I have no real idea about, thankfully having had two of my own. You have my sympathies.

 

People I know could not get children and I know they'd have been brilliant parents. However what they did was get themselves a gorgeous big dog. They are besotted with him, spend a fortune on training him, vets etc. Of course a dog isn't for everyone, but definitely some get them as substitutes for children. A lady we knew with a Malteser like ours openly confessed that her puppy was a child substitute. I don't think there is shame there. Our dog came just as your kids were getting older and I was feeling less needed. tbh I'm swamped at times but rather that than sitting bored and empty all day.

 

Thanks, Jeremy.

 

I would LOVE to get a dog and I would do it today... I grew up with boxers and I do think that having one would ease the pain of being childless.  I´ve wanted a dog for years.  Unfortunately, though, we live in a small apartment building with 7 other parties.  We are the only ones who rent, all others are Eigentümer.  We were told by the Hausverwaltung that we need to have the express permission of everyone who lives in our building in order to get a dog.  Some of them would probably say yes, but there are 2 that I am pretty sure would say no (one older man maybe 75 who has the typical German "Blockwart" mentality and loves to yell at people for putting too much Altpapier in the Altpapier bin) and I am so afraid to ask.  In the Hausordnung it says, "Haustiere nicht erlaubt."

 

If they refuse, we would have to look for a new apartment if we wanted a dog.  As you know, the affordable apartment situation in Munich is a catastrophe.  It took us 3 years to find this apartment.  3 years of intensively searching.  We looked at 116 apartments before we found this one.  We moved because we wanted something bigger in order to have a bedroom for our child.  A room which is empty even still today.  I walk past it all the time and try not to think of the being who should have been living in there.  At the time, having a child was our hope and dream and having a dog was on the back burner, so I wasn´t concerned about the Hausordnung when we moved in.

 

If I could, I would get a dog immediately.  But it seems that this dream will not become a reality for us, either.  It hurts.

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That is a very moving post, Long Island Duckling:rolleyes:...first of all, your love of dogs and then " a room which is empty even still today ". 

Cyberhugs - if I may.

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What john said.

 

Can you consider fostering, as jeba suggested? I have met people for whom it has been a back door into adoption, although of course it doesn't work out that way for everyone.

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Aw, thanks Jeba, John G and Kiplette.  Cyberhugs much appreciated.

 

I don´t know about fostering for the simple reason that we are almost 50 now and I´m not sure that isn´t too old for the foster child program and maybe for children in general.  But I will look into it.

 

Where did the years go?  No idea.  It went so fast between 40 and 50.

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Male infertility is just as heartbreaking as female infertility.  One of my children simply doesn't produce sperm.  At all.  Never will.  Never.

This is a man whose plans for his life not only including children, but he even had named his first son, a child who will never be born.

Is it good news that his wife had successful IVF?  From the outside, yes.  But my son found himself confronted with the realization that in a sense he's a cuckold.  That the happy egg in his family nest has no genetic relationship to him, isn't blood of his blood.  And he's lived on the brink, aware that some day his child will be curious about a biological father.

Parenthood, which comes so easily to some, is a haven with hidden depths for others.

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his child may be curious about the biological father, but maybe not

 

I was already grown when I found out I was a sperm donor baby, as my mom said she just didn't know how to bring that up at all.  

 

No way of knowing exactly who the donor is/was, but I honestly don't , and never did, care.  My dad was my dad.  This other man, yes he technically made my life possible, and from time to time I wonder what he and his genetics have contributed to my bad self, and I appreciate his contribution very much. But my dad was my dad.  Simple.  Nothing more to it, from where I sit.

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I'm happy things worked well for you, @lisa13.  I hope they worked out as well for your father.   :) 
Especially for men, infertility is an embarrassing issue, and most don't like to discuss it.  If there are other men on the forum who can give me some info on handling the topic with my son, I'd appreciate a PM.  Recently we had a soul-searing conversation after I inadvertently touched an unrecognized sore spot; it left us both shaken.

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10 hours ago, Long Island Duckling said:

I don´t know about fostering for the simple reason that we are almost 50 now and I´m not sure that isn´t too old for the foster child program

One of the ladies I know is probably around 50 (I don´t know her well enough to ask;)). One child she is forstering was already over the age of 10 when they got it but the other was still a baby. That´s not the main problem I guess. A bigger problem might be that you don´t know for sure whether you can keep a kid. If e. g. the parent´s situation changes and they apply for and get granted custody you´ll be separated from a child you´ll already have formed a bond with - which can be very challenging on an emotional level. This is exactly the fear the other lady I know has who is fostering a baby.

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11 hours ago, katheliz said:

 

I'm happy things worked well for you, @lisa13.  I hope they worked out as well for your father.   :) 

 

 

why does this sound so condescending and dismissive?

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because you took it that way, I guess.

 

Katheliz is in the middle of a painful family moment of her own, and is after reassurance that her son might, in the fullness of time, feel whole in his life with his family. Her words come from his and her raw wound, and perhaps you could respond to her hope that your Dad is happy too, that might help. 

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I can't say if he was happy regarding his infertility or not as he died before I found out about the nature of my conception.  If he was unhappy being my dad because I didn't carry any of his genetic material he certainly never let on, he simply treated me like I was "his".  

 

Anyway, I was merely trying to reassure her that sperm donor kids aren't always particularly interested in where their genetic material came from, as that was one of her stated concerns.

 

 

 

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