Why do you want to send your children to private school in Germany?

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20 minutes ago, sos-the-rope said:

Ja, iss es. So it's a fine bureaucratic distinction as to whether the school can issue its own certs or if it relies on a third party for that.

 

The question is whether a child that didn't learn according to the state curriculum (in a staatlich genehmigte school they do not follow it) is able to pass the external Abitur state exam.

For statistics how many pupils who didn't attend state schools or staatlich anerkannte schools failed the Abitur, i.e. for the Abitur failure quote (= Durchfallquote) of pupils from staatlich genehmigte schools, please see here, it's around 40%: http://www.abi-nachholen.de/externenpruefung.html

58b69d5218a35_2017-03-0111_06_24-Nichtsc

 

 

Of the pupils who did attend a state school or a staatlich anerkannte school, only between 1.3% and 6.5% failed, see the figures in the black circles here (they're from 2013): https://magazin.spiegel.de/digital/index_SP.html#SP/2015/24/135322472

 

58b69d0ea3724_2017-03-0111_05_24-DERSPIE

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12 minutes ago, PandaMunich said:

 

The question is whether a child that didn't learn according to the state curriculum (in a staatlich genehmigte school they do not follow it) is able to pass the external Abitur state exam.

 

 

Do not (always) have to (but might) or do not (ever, and cannot)?

 

If you are aiming for an IB, why worry about passing an Abi?

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Because if your children want to go to university in Germany (which is probable, since university is free in Germany and costs a lot of money in the UK, and you want to get permanent residency here, so they will grow up here) they will compete with children who have the Abitur.

 

German university expects their students to know the things taught in the state curriculum. The whole Gymnasium material is repeated within the first week at university at breakneck speed and that's it: that material is expected as a basis (= Grundwissen).

 

And just think: if the IB leads to a "worse" average than they would have had in the Abitur, you will have paid a lot of money just to worsen your children's chances of even getting into a course in university, since nearly half the university courses now have a numerus clausus.

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5 minutes ago, PandaMunich said:

Because if your children want to go to university in Germany (which is probable, since university is free in Germany and costs a lot of money in the UK, and you want to get permanent residency here, so they will grow up here) they will compete with children who have the Abitur.

 

German university expects their students to know the things taught in the state curriculum. The Gymnasium material is repeated within the first week at breakneck speed at university and that's it. so that material is expected as a basis.

And just think: if the IB leads to a "worse" average than they would have had in the Abitur, you will have paid a lot of money just to worsen your children's chances of even getting into a course in university, since nearly half the university courses now have a numerus clausus.

 

Why beat about the bush? Do you like "private" (I hesitate to use that word, but, whatever) schools or not?:D

 

"Abitur is king, all else is vanity" is a fine slogan.

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Private "staatlich genehmigte" schools that charge fees have a raison d'être in the case of children who come to Germany at an advanced age when they can no longer learn German quickly enough to manage to pass the Abitur within a reasonable time, or for children of parents who are only here on a temporary assignment, as I said before:

"... for expats only staying a few years these schools are a good alternative because their children will not be stressed by an education according to the strict German system and since nobody can ever fail a year there, there will be no need for private tutoring."

 

For an example of such a case please read this:

 

For children who grew up in Germany like your children did, and who therefore have no language barrier, I see the private fee-paying "staatlich genehmigte" schools as a rip-off:

  • best case, you will pay for something that you could have had for free at a state school
  • worst case, you will pay a lot of money for something inferior to a state education, and hurt your children's chances of getting into/doing well at a German university.

 

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18 minutes ago, PandaMunich said:

Private "staatlich genehmigte" schools that charge fees have a raison d'être in the case of children who come to Germany at an advanced age when they can no longer learn German quickly enough to manage to pass the Abitur within a reasonable time, or for children of parents who are only here on a temporary assignment, as I said before:

"... for expats only staying a few years these schools are a good alternative because their children will not be stressed by an education according to the strict German system and since nobody can ever fail a year there, there will be no need for private tutoring."

 

For an example of such a case please read this:

 

For children who grew up in Germany like your children did, and who therefore have no language barrier, I see the private fee-paying "staatlich genehmigte" schools as a rip-off:

  • best case, you will pay for something that you could have had for free at a state school
  • worst case, you will pay a lot of money for something inferior to a state education, and hurt your children's chances of getting into/doing well at a German university.

 

 

Yeah... I noticed ;-)

 

I wonder why almost all the other parents at the school here are Germans then?

 

Maybe you could notice in my above posts I deliberately did not sign up for one of those "expat" schools with an Anglosphere style. You would need to read them though ;)

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10 minutes ago, sos-the-rope said:

I wonder why almost all the other parents at the school here are Germans then?

 

Many years ago when my son was at BIS, it think that 54% of the students were German. In some cases, I think it was about the whole private school status thing. In many others, the kids had been kicked out of ("did not perform well in")  German schools. The bonus for my son was that he was speaking accent-free fluent German in one year because of hanging out with the German kids as well as the German class he had each day.

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One thing that was mentioned to us as our daughter is moving up from Grundschule this September - those kids who are really troublesome and excluded by state schools can end up and some do end up in private schools. With a business model and profit as the motive, a number are not going to turn away someone paying a fee.

 

On a separate point but linked, in the mid 90's I think it was, the state school in Melton Mowbray had better 'A' level results than the fee paying exclusive Oakham school. What price quality education?

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2 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

Many years ago when my son was at BIS, it think that 54% of the students were German. In some cases, I think it was about the whole private school status thing. In many others, the kids had been kicked out of ("did not perform well in")  German schools. The bonus for my son was that he was speaking accent-free fluent German in one year because of hanging out with the German kids as well as the German class he had each day.

 

Oh dear, oh dear. Still if you ignore the huge amounts of emo hand-wringing stuff there's way less cognitive overhead herer than all the crud about school catchment areas and Eton. Germany is still great.

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2 minutes ago, French bean said:

One thing that was mentioned to us as our daughter is moving up from Grundschule this September - those kids who are really troublesome and excluded by state schools can end up and some do end up in private schools. With a business model and profit as the motive, a number are not going to turn away someone paying a fee.

 

On a separate point but linked, in the mid 90's I think it was, the state school in Melton Mowbray had better 'A' level results than the fee paying exclusive Oakham school. What price quality education?

 

I don't know about Munich but the one we went with is really not that excessive. No school is perfect. My dad (a teacher who picked up a few battle scars in "internationals" back in the day) always hammered home the distinction between schooling and education.

 

Exam systems are systems. If you learn to enjoy them as a game you can pass them.

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2 minutes ago, sos-the-rope said:

 

Exam systems are systems. If you learn to enjoy them as a game you can pass them.

Too right, learn to play the system. I'm a firm believer in people being able to pass exams providing they put the effort in, it's not always about ability. I also think that the exclusive schools do well not because of the quality of the teachers but because of the quality of the pupils and the aspirations of the parents. After all, just how well would a teacher from Cheltenham Girls for example do in Haringey or Tower Hamlets?

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2 minutes ago, French bean said:

Too right, learn to play the system. I'm a firm believer in people being able to pass exams providing they put the effort in, it's not always about ability. I also think that the exclusive schools do well not because of the quality of the teachers but because of the quality of the pupils and the aspirations of the parents. After all, just how well would a teacher from Cheltenham Girls for example do in Haringey or Tower Hamlets?

 

I'm not suggesting people should cheat or "game the system" - only that parents and children need to *understand* the system.

 

You can either enjoy passing exams and actually learn something using them as a tool, or fail them; the other "pass" result is if you treat them as a quasi-morality and you MUST pass them to measure your worth...

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2 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

 

 

Because I see no reason to pay 18,000€ a year (source) at MIS for something you can have for free at a state school.

The IB has no advantage over the Abitur, the Abitur gives you worldwide access to all universities.

 

Well, I can give you some reasons:

1) you can change country and keep following the same curriculum

2) English focus. Sorry, but German is useless outside of DACH

3) I've heard several stories of foreigner discrimination in state school even in Munich, both from teachers and students

4) Extremely bad interaction with teachers on state school. They provide little feedback

5) Bad support for children falling behind on state school

 

Actuall the cost is well over 18.000€ if you count all the small things, depending on the school year also. .On average is above 20K€ on BIS and 23k€ on MIS. If you pay afternoon activities, add some 3K€.

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7 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Well, I can give you some reasons:

1) you can change country and keep following the same curriculum

2) English focus. Sorry, but German is useless outside of DACH

3) I've heard several stories of foreigner discrimination in state school even in Munich, both from teachers and students

4) Extremely bad interaction with teachers on state school. They provide little feedback

5) Bad support for children falling behind on state school

 

Actuall the cost is well over 18.000€ if you count all the small things, depending on the school year also. .On average is above 20K€ on BIS and 23k€ on MIS. If you pay afternoon activities, add some 3K€.

 

Don't forget - we "private" parents still pay our taxes plus fees :-) So we should deserve a little recognition...

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2 hours ago, PandaMunich said:
  • best case, you will pay for something that you could have had for free at a state school

 

 

There's also no bilingual English-German state schools that I've come across. You might get Arabic or Turkish, which are great, but actually I'd like my kids to continue speaking both English and German, not just get completely used to German plus bad English ;-)

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1 hour ago, sos-the-rope said:

 

I'm not suggesting people should cheat or "game the system" - only that parents and children need to *understand* the system.

 

You can either enjoy passing exams and actually learn something using them as a tool, or fail them; the other "pass" result is if you treat them as a quasi-morality and you MUST pass them to measure your worth...

This is how you potentially play the system. When I took my final exam for my degree, we had covered 6 topics, of these 6 we knew we would only need to choose 3 because with each part of the exam was a choice of questions and you you not allowed to cover the same theme in more than one section.

 

Now if a course at school for example is predominately based on course work In the UK before GCSE's, with the old CSE's you know you have to put all your effort into the course work. If the result  relies on a final exam such as the old GCE 'O' level then you can leave the effort until the end such as I did when I sat mine. 6 weeks of revision after doing the bare minimum beforehand meant I passed.

 

It's not about cheating the system, more about understanding how the system works and working efficiently to achieve which afterall is what most of us have to do in adulthood.

7 minutes ago, sos-the-rope said:

 

There's also no bilingual English-German state schools that I've come across. You might get Arabic or Turkish, which are great, but actually I'd like my kids to continue speaking both English and German, not just get completely used to German plus bad English ;-)

Actually, one of the Gymnasiums in our town switch between English and German for teaching all subjects. We're in RLP.

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2 minutes ago, French bean said:

Actually, one of the Gymnasiums in our town switch between English and German for teaching all subjects. We're in RLP.

 

 

Interesting! So a state grammar school?

 

What's RLP? Rheinland-Pfalz?

 

Are there that many native English speaking children there?

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yes it's a state grammer school and we're in Rheinland Pfalz. However this is the only school I know of that does it in the area. I don't know how many English speakers there are but there at least 4 of us that I know of who have German wives thereby bilingual children. At Ludwigshaven is BASF (employs over 30k) with various satellite offices in the area and I have met Americans and my wife has met Brits as well who are working there on short term secondments. So I suppose they feel there is a need for English to be taught to a pretty good standard.

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