Bavaria plans burqa ban

522 posts in this topic

49 minutes ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

The people in question are often not themselves migrants.

German passport holder vs German.

Kind of convenient how every cultural underpinning stems from MENA, the assertion of the which involves German Nationality.

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Just now, Harold Beckwith said:

And... If they want to work in a company that does not allow religious stuff... The same rule should kick in right?

 

No, because (1) the interpretation of bare survival differs greatly across believers and (2) many of the people in question do indeed have the choice to retreat from public life and personal advancement, so it's hard to stretch the definition of bare survival to avoiding being discriminated against at the workplace. 

 

The question, as I said above, is whether it's a good idea to create a situation where people have to make this choice.  If your goal is to prevent religious visibility per se, particularly that of Islam, then you'll think it's a good idea.  If your goal is to encourage women to become economically independent, then you'd want them to have a full range of employment options regardless of whether they cover up.

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So you are indoctrinated into having to cover your genitals in public and you do not even know you are.

The conclusion is your indoctrination is better than their indoctrination.

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Just now, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

No, because (1) the interpretation of bare survival differs greatly across believers and (2) many of the people in question do indeed have the choice to retreat from public life and personal advancement, so it's hard to stretch the definition of bare survival to avoiding being discriminated against at the workplace. 

 

The question, as I said above, is whether it's a good idea to create a situation where people have to make this choice.  If your goal is to prevent religious visibility per se, particularly that of Islam, then you'll think it's a good idea.  If your goal is to encourage women to become economically independent, then you'd want them to have a full range of employment options regardless of whether they cover up.

Working is survival and to work, you have to follow the company rules.

 

It is fascinating seeing you on the side that has to argue against a law. 

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Just now, rohit_2543 said:

German passport holder vs German.

Kind of convenient how every cultural underpinning stems from MENA, the assertion of the which involves German Nationality.

 

Some of them are converts with no ME background -- this is disproportionately true among niqabis.  And yes, some of them are multi-generational descendents of Middle Eastern immigrants, some of them are not even Middle Eastern but come from central Asia, south Asia, and even east Asia.  What of it?

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Just now, Krieg said:

So you are indoctrinated into having to cover your genitals in public and you do not even know you are.

The conclusion is your indoctrination is better than their indoctrination.
 

No, there are laws that saw I have to cover up my genitals. Go out tomorrow naked and see what happens. If you can conceive to do it, then you can make a choice.

Are you saying Muslim women who do not cover up are like, dicks?

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3 minutes ago, Harold Beckwith said:

Working is survival and to work, you have to follow the company rules.

 

It is fascinating seeing you on the side that has to argue against a law. 

 

I've argued against many laws, such as the (backfired) French niqab ban.

 

Working is not a survival requirement if you, for instance, can move into a poorer neighbourhood and survive from the proceeds of your husband's job.  Again, you avoid the question: is demanding that someone make this choice a good idea?  Or are you just trying to engineer a situation in which someone is coerced into taking off their hijab, e.g., for "survival"?

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2 minutes ago, Harold Beckwith said:

No, there are laws that saw I have to cover up my genitals. Go out tomorrow naked and see what happens. If you can conceive to do it, then you can make a choice.

Are you saying Muslim women who do not cover up are like, dicks?

 

It is unbelievable how you either do not get it or you pretend you do not get it.

 

There are laws that force to cover your genitals and you do not have any problem with them.

 

If there were laws that forced you to display your genitals you would have a problem with them.

 

Some Muslim women follow a tradition where covering their hair is the normal thing.  Just like covering your genitals is your normal thing.

 

If there is a law saying they have to display their hair they will have a problem with it. Just like you would have a problem with a law forcing you to display your genitals.

 

It is basically the same thing.  The only difference is the line of what you have to cover is in a different place.

 

But you think your line is better than their line.

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Just now, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

I've argued against many laws, such as the (backfired) French niqab ban.

 

Working is not a survival requirement if you, for instance, can move into a poorer neighbourhood and survive from the proceeds of your husband's job.  Again, you avoid the question: is demanding that someone make this choice a good idea?  Or are you just trying to engineer a situation in which someone is coerced into taking of their hijab, e.g., for "survival"?

The law in France you mean?

There is no choice, there is no demand. In companies that have this rule, they cannot be worn. Much like the religion itself, the choice is removed.

The difference is, one is a law, one is based on some a dumb ass backward religion that requires its followers to do stuff. 
It is hilarious you are talking about choice when talking about a religion that doesn't really want to allow one.

However this is you, you want the choice to be allowed as the religion does not allow one. In effect, you have to do that, otherwise people may take them off.

 

I am trying to engineer, well of course, I am a top law maker in EU, didn't you notice?
Sounds more like you want a situation in which women have to cover up as to not would weaken the religion. Who knows, maybe that is the start, next they want equal rights and a bigger say in how the fairy tale book is interpreted. Then its bikinis birth control and choosing their husbands...

Maybe I will make it to pope this time? I am already on the second bigger house...

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1 minute ago, Krieg said:

 

It is unbelievable how you either do not get it or you pretend you do not get it.

 

There are laws that force to cover your genitals and you do not have any problem with them.

 

If there were laws that forced you to display your genitals you would have a problem with them.

 

Some Muslim women follow a tradition where covering their hair is the normal thing.  Just like covering your genitals is your normal thing.

 

If there is a law saying they have to display their hair they will have a problem with it. Just like you would have a problem with a law forcing you to display your genitals.

 

It is basically the same thing.  The only difference is the line of what you have to cover is in a different place.

 

But you think your line is better than their line.

You seem to be really stretching the comparisons here. Maybe if people don't get it, it is because they are carp comparisons.

Nakedness with head covering. One is the lack of something (clothes), the other is the lack of a lack, your are lacking the lack of a head covering.

Maybe people do get it but think it's bollocks. Like religion and the dumb ass backward stuff that comes with it.

 

Still, if people are easily lead to the point where they nod at a book written a long time ago...

 

Judgement was done, companies can use that rule if they want. 

Would either of you two go out in a headscarf?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Harold Beckwith said:


There is no choice, there is no demand. In companies that have this rule, they cannot be worn. Much like the religion itself, the choice is removed.

 

 

...which leads to particular social outcomes, which you refuse to discuss or even acknowledge.  Bad faith, as I said.

 

4 minutes ago, Harold Beckwith said:

Sounds more like you want a situation in which women have to cover up as to not would weaken the religion. Who knows, maybe that is the start, next they want equal rights and a bigger say in how the fairy tale book is interpreted. Then its bikinis birth control and choosing their husbands...

 

No.  I want to give women with particular, highly-gendered religious outlooks access to the labour market, within their comfort zones, because I believe that that is the only way they will progress to greater individual liberty.  You wish to force on them a dilemma of conscience, which will have the opposite effect.  You do this, by declaring their conscience to be a mere choice, like any other, easily discarded like a plastic fork.

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13 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

It is unbelievable how you either do not get it or you pretend you do not get it.

 

Oh, he gets it, and so do klubbnika and the rest.  The goal is: drive visible religion, particularly of the Islamic variety, out of public visibility, in the belief that religion, particularly of the Islamic variety, is the source of all the world's evil.  So any question of consistency or social policy or principle is to be avoided: hooray, companies can circumlocute hijab bans into existence.

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11 minutes ago, Harold Beckwith said:

The difference is, one is a law, one is based on some a dumb ass backward religion that requires its followers to do stuff. 
It is hilarious you are talking about choice when talking about a religion that doesn't really want to allow one.
 

 

Are you aware that we all do dumb ass backward things every single day?

 

Again, your dumb as backward things are better than theirs.

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Just now, Krieg said:

 

Are you aware that we all do dumb ass backward things every single day?

 

Again, your dumb as backward things are better than theirs.

 

HB tips his hand: the desire is the extirpation of religion "that requires its followers to do stuff", and economic coercion is an acceptable way to go about it.

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As I've said before, in the desert the hijab looks quite beautiful.

 

Here in the West it looks shite. 

 

Our concession to Islam is only because of petrodollars. Suppose we accommodate Hinduism and ban the eating of cows? Or maybe we forbid the swatting of flies to keep the Indian Jains happy? Utter nonsense.

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1 minute ago, Krieg said:

 

Are you aware that we all do dumb ass backward things every single day?

 

Again, your dumb as backward things are better than theirs.

That is ok then.
Why do we bother changing anything. 
Shame all those women didn't say 'well you know, there are women in the world that can't vote, and that is dumb. We also do dumb things, so let's not bother fighting for the right to vote, equal rights and work'..
 

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Comparing someone wanting to cover their hair with not having the right to vote makes sense. Said the guy arguing that my analogies are bad.

Honestly speaking someone covering their hair does not hurt anyone. People wanting to stop that are the narrow minded ones.

Specially when we all cover our hairs in different ways.

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3 minutes ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

HB tips his hand: the desire is the extirpation of religion "that requires its followers to do stuff", and economic coercion is an acceptable way to go about it.

You really are fanatical in your need to defend backwards religious practices.

 

I must remember to complain at the next job I apply for that has a dress code, say, a shirt and tie in a bank. No, I want to wear a t-shirt. No, you have to wear a shirt, it is company policy.

You just tipped your hand, this is not about economic coercion, it is about a religious practice that you see threatened by a judgement. 
 

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2 minutes ago, Harold Beckwith said:

You just tipped your hand, this is not about economic coercion, it is about a religious practice that you see threatened by a judgement. 

 

No, it's about driving (some) religious women back into the home, which they will do so that they can maintain their consciences. The religious practice will survive on its own and even thrive under the conditions you want to allow, as it always does.

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1 minute ago, Krieg said:

Comparing someone wanting to cover their hair with not having the right to vote makes sense. Said the guy arguing that my analogies are bad.

Honestly speaking someone covering their hair does not hurt anyone. People wanting to stop that are the narrow minded ones.

Specially when we all cover our hairs in different ways.

I didn't compare the two, I used a example to show that your 'everyone does dumb ass stuff' is bollocks and would have prevented equal right for women in the western world.

There is nothing in my post about headscarves. 

Then again, this is what happens with religious discussion. The more you discuss the more ridiculous it starts to seem. A little like those people that read too much into Disney films.

 

 

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