Brexit: The fallout

18,333 posts in this topic

9 hours ago, fraufruit said:

 

So there are no more poor people in the UK outside of the foreign fruit pickers?

Poor is relative but it doesn't matter here, not many people would take jobs picking veg and fruit. 

From the documentaries I've seen it's really back breaking work. Long hours for low pay. 

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1 hour ago, MUinEU said:

Poor is relative but it doesn't matter here, not many people would take jobs picking veg and fruit. 

From the documentaries I've seen it's really back breaking work. Long hours for low pay. 

That's why thinking Yanks realize that getting rid of all the Latinos who provide stoop labor is a danger to our relatively low prices for produce.
Overall, look for A Day Without A Mexican, possibly available on Netflix and elsewhere, for a sardonic look at what California without Mexicans would look like, from agriculture to the government in Sacramento.

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9 hours ago, katheliz said:

That's why thinking Yanks realize that getting rid of all the Latinos who provide stoop labor is a danger to our relatively low prices for produce.
Overall, look for A Day Without A Mexican, possibly available on Netflix and elsewhere, for a sardonic look at what California without Mexicans would look like, from agriculture to the government in Sacramento.

It takes the will and intelligence to be able to work through the whole thing. If people cannot do that and only see the the 'foreigners taking our jobs' then they'll never get how it all fits together. 

 

It's almost as if they want the cheap workers but don't want to have to see them around. Don't want to have to interact with them. 

 

Like the good old days. 

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27 minutes ago, MUinEU said:

It takes the will and intelligence to be able to work through the whole thing. If people cannot do that and only see the the 'foreigners taking our jobs' then they'll never get how it all fits together.

It's almost as if they want the cheap workers but don't want to have to see them around. Don't want to have to interact with them. 

Like the good old days. 

 

I say we bring back indentured servants !!!

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51 minutes ago, Metall said:

 

I say we bring back indentured servants !!!

 

Still in existence. Different names, inhuman conditions.

But you already knew that.

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On 6/6/2021, 1:08:39, Metall said:

 

I say we bring back indentured servants !!!

I am ok with workers coming in to a country to do jobs no one wants to do. 

In countries where there are min wage laws it's a sort of win win. 

 

Fruit gets picked prices stay down and the workers get to send money home or save etc. 

 

It's not a terrible system. Slavery would however be cheaper and if you look back, when there were no slaves there was always people to fill the workhouse. 

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47 minutes ago, MUinEU said:

I am ok with workers coming in to a country to do jobs no one wants to do. 

Question should be is why do no locals want those jobs ?

48 minutes ago, MUinEU said:

Fruit gets picked prices stay down

This is true,but why do we accept prices going up rather than the companies making the profits on it reducing their profits ?

Little example here...

Tescos from Feb 2019 to Feb 2020 made 2.9b profit,yes that´s profit not turnover.

Now what would be wrong with paying fruit pickers etc more and selling those products onto Tescos at a higher price and Tescos only make say 1b profit ?

Why are people so conditioned to accepting that prices will go up rather than profits going down ?

 

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On 6/6/2021, 11:06:03, Wulfrun said:

60bc8fa41cb89_ohwow.jpg.2ffbf2077d20b34e

Oh! Wow! these must be 'the easiest trade deals, ever'

 

 

 

This Tweet really shows how out of touch the govt appears to be in regards to allowing acts to tour abroad relatively bureaucracy free..

Some of the replies are gold,it´s best to say he´s not musicians favourite person.

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From a McDonald's internal report:

 

We have identified two particular challenges in the labour market in the coming years:

 Shrinking pool of UK labour: The UK workforce is shrinking, because of too many older
workers leaving the labour market and too few young people entering it. The number of
people in employment is currently growing at 1.2% per year. However, the growth rate of the
working age population, including migration, is just 0.26%. As a result, the pool of available
labour is shrinking rapidly, reflected in the fact that employment rates are at their highest
since comparable records began in 1971.
If these rates of employment and working age population growth are maintained, our
projections show that the workforce supply and demand curves intersect around mid-2022, at
which point the economy will effectively ‘run out of labour’ to fuel further economic growth.
(Figures based on ONS data, September 2017).

 Full employment in certain parts of the UK: The equilibrium jobless rate is the point where
an economy is effectively at full employment. The Bank of England’s ‘rule of thumb’ had been
that the UK equilibrium jobless rate was when unemployment fell below 5%. In January 2017,
Michael Saunders, an external member of the Bank's Monetary Policy Committee, suggested
that the UK equilibrium jobless rate could be as low as 4% – although he stressed the
uncertainty around this figure.
The overall UK unemployment rate currently stands at 4.3%, with six regions at or below the
BoE’s lower 4% equilibrium jobless rate estimate: North West (4.0%); East Midlands (3.9%);
Scotland (3.8%); East (3.8%); South West (3.7%); South East (3.2%). This makes recruitment
in these areas extremely challenging. (ONS data, September 2017).

The combination of these two challenges mean that we are reliant on non-UK labour to meet our
business needs. As a result, 12% of our workforce come from the EEA, and 5.3% from the rest of the
world (figures from end of August 2017). Some restaurants have a greater proportion of non-UK
nationals, particularly in the South East, and London. Our restaurants in these regions are staffed by
a greater proportion of EEA workers. This is at its most acute in London, where 35.8% of our
employees are from the EEA.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/693128/McDonald_s.PDF

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14 hours ago, Keleth said:

Question should be is why do no locals want those jobs ?

This is true,but why do we accept prices going up rather than the companies making the profits on it reducing their profits ?

Little example here...

Tescos from Feb 2019 to Feb 2020 made 2.9b profit,yes that´s profit not turnover.

Now what would be wrong with paying fruit pickers etc more and selling those products onto Tescos at a higher price and Tescos only make say 1b profit ?

Why are people so conditioned to accepting that prices will go up rather than profits going down ?

 

I really think that people in some countries have the expectation of not having to do the kind of work picking fruit and so on is. 

It's hard long work, given the choice I wouldn't do it myself. Lot of work for not a lot of cash in a time when people need two incomes to be ok. Add in child care and it probably isn't worth it. 

 

Profits is the reason. Supermarkets could pay more. If they did, would that get passed on to the pickers? 

People are conditioned as they have been conditioned over many years. 

People accept it as if they are part of a system they can succeed in. Almost as if they expect one day to be sitting with a lot of shares or to own their own business. 

Not going to happen for most people. 

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On 06/06/2021, 01:27:43, MUinEU said:

Poor is relative but it doesn't matter here, not many people would take jobs picking veg and fruit. 

That's something of a fallacy. There were various articles/letters in the UK press last year from Brits trying to take those jobs but being turned away.

It is a common practice for the owners of those farms to engage foreign workers and "house" them on site (usually in cr@ppy old caravans). The costs of providing that accommodation is then deducted from the already low wages paid by the owners.

It is annoying how the media assumes the problem lies with poor people looking for low paid work, rather than the landowners trying to make a profit both from production and supply and/or the large supermarkets' profits in what has been a bumper year for those massive retailers who have benefitted from being the few stores able to stay open throughout the healthcare crisis.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, MUinEU said:

It's hard long work, given the choice I wouldn't do it myself. Lot of work for not a lot of cash in a time when people need two incomes to be ok. Add in child care and it probably isn't worth it. 

 

Fruit pickers mostly need to live onsite which costs them about 70 pounds a week.  

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On 04/06/2021, 12:40:46, john_b said:

Another "win" for the Brexit faction - looks like there will be far fewer school exchanges from the EU to the UK. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jun/04/school-trips-to-uk-from-eu-could-halve-brexit-hits-cultural-exchanges

 

 

 

Brexiteers will very much see this as a win. The same as they saw the end of the UK participation in Erasmus as a good thing.

 

Some of them have this belief that the only thing such programs achieve is EU indoctrination of British students (although to be fair some of them also accuse UK Universities of doing the same).

 

@murphaph's point about making NI in to Johnson's Falklands is a good one, and you can also notice that some leave voters evoke the cold war a lot too - you can often hear or read them proclaiming that the EU is a communist or Marxist organisation, and that a Frankfurt school-style long march has occurred through UK cultural and educational institutions. 

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9 hours ago, MUinEU said:

People accept it as if they are part of a system they can succeed in.

Isn´t that "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled".

Why do so many people including more than a few on here think people are poor by choice and that if they only worked harder they would be rich too.

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9 hours ago, dstanners said:

That's something of a fallacy. There were various articles/letters in the UK press last year from Brits trying to take those jobs but being turned away.

It is a common practice for the owners of those farms to engage foreign workers and "house" them on site (usually in cr@ppy old caravans). The costs of providing that accommodation is then deducted from the already low wages paid by the owners.

It is annoying how the media assumes the problem lies with poor people looking for low paid work, rather than the landowners trying to make a profit both from production and supply and/or the large supermarkets' profits in what has been a bumper year for those massive retailers who have benefitted from being the few stores able to stay open throughout the healthcare crisis.

 

 

This could be the time for people who want these jobs to get them and change the way the owners run their farms. If foreign workers are not filling the numbers then they will have to take local people. 

 

It's been par for the course for a long time that poor people are poor because they don't want to work or just do not work hard enough. 

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20 minutes ago, Keleth said:

Isn´t that "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled".

Why do so many people including more than a few on here think people are poor by choice and that if they only worked harder they would be rich too.

It's selling the dream. 

If people believe the reason they fail is down to them, then they won't complain about how things are stacked against them. 

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When I was a student I had a regular summer job in a fruit packing plant in Dundee. 12 hour night shift, 7 days a week, for about a month. For 
£1 an hour or something. Yeah, yeah we used to eat grit, etc. Anyway. It was utterly, utterly as shit as it sounds. But after those 4 or 5 weeks I was loaded - I'd save about as much as one terms grant. Some kids would work the whole summer for that.

 

And I only got the job coz I dated a girl who got me in. The competition was immense. It was not something that British workers didn't want to do. No, no, no.

 

My role was lifting pallets of punnets up to the conveyor belt where 4 others would pour them out and the fruit would go through the sorter and then get frozen. That job probably doesn't even exist any more, I would hope it's been automated.

 

Much has changed since then. 

 

Technology means there is less seasonality, so you can't rely on students as they just don't have enough free time.

 

And students don't want to do it anyway when they can just get a loan.

 

And the legal minimum wage means that to pay such shitty wages then as mentioned above, the owners have to make the workers live on site, and rip them off for accommodation.

 

The industry will change again to adapt to the new environment. Maybe cheap EU workers was the optimal solution, maybe not. 

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