Brexit: The fallout

17,662 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, alexunterwegs said:

Why wouldn't you take what is says on the ballot paper literally? What happened is that the hardcore Brexiteers interpreted the result to mean leaving the Single Market which was always on their agenda.   

Clearly some of the Brexit voters did so to stop EU migration, but only a proportion of the 52% that voted Out.  In fact I've seen surveys showing the sentiment against EU migration was not clearcut. Certainly, when I was working in London and south Bucks I never met anyone who showed hostility to EU migrants. I know there are stories from where large clusters of them were living, about sponging off benefits or taking housing and jobs in short supply, but these were localised hotspots. People like Farage and the Brexit press hyped all these stories up. 

Its debateable whether May would have tried to keep us in the Single Market. I think she would, but Boris driven by the Brexit fanatics, never gave that a serious chance. 

 

This is why I was against the "blood on their hands" comment from some pages ago. The question on the ballot was vague*. It means we don't know what people really actually voted for. Many different possibilities were on the table and touted by the politicians. Everything we see now is the result of what politicians did after the vote. So although I am mega annoyed at Brexit voters because I feel that they should have thought about it harder, I cannot discount the fact that maybe the voters did all think hard and that they simply voted for their version of Brexit, whatever that may have been.

 

I have more of a problem with the general election in 2019. By then it was pretty clear the direction that Boris wanted to take Brexit...but maybe that result is more the fault of a piss poor Labour campaign.

 

*If the question wasn't vague then I have no doubt that Brexit would not have happened. A ballot paper with remain vs a specific type of Brexit would stand no chance.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, theGman said:

...but maybe that result is more the fault of a piss poor Labour campaign.

 

or rather their leadership / policies.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, theGman said:

*If the question wasn't vague then I have no doubt that Brexit would not have happened. A ballot paper with remain vs a specific type of Brexit would stand no chance.

That was always the issue, the question was simple, but implementing it would never be due the many way it could be done.

The actual official government statement (if I remember correctly) was that a vote for leave was a vote to start a process that would be carried out by government. When you look at that, anyone saying they know what thy voted for is basically saying 'I voted for what I thought/wanted would happen', anyone that got that should really be playing the lottery.

 

The idea of having the ballot more detailed, for example with remain, leave and join EEA, leave but stay in single market, leave but stay in customs union was not accepted as, and even Ferage said it, that would led to a remain victory.  Personally I don't think any of the main advocates of leave wanted to be shackled to any kind of brexit outcome, they wanted the freedom to push for what thy wanted. In reality, only they got to vote and push for what they wanted. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Dembo said:

The result was never binding; it was always going to be interpreted by the politicians. The question is if it had been clear on the ballot paper that leave didn't mean ending FOM and would mean following EU rules and regulations but now without being part of the decision making process, would people have voted for it? I suspect many Brexiteers would think it wasn't worth it; it wasn't Brexit and so Remain would have won by a landslide, but the campaign for a proper Brexit referendum would have receieved a huge boost and UKIP would have become ever more popular. OTOH had the ballot paper made it clear that Brexit meant leaving the SM and CU probably the result would have been the same.

 

 I can agree with a lot of that, but the fact it wasn't binding, and was subject to politicians' interpretation, means the result loses a lot of its legitimacy.  Both legal and moral. If it had spelt out more precisely that it meant leaving the Single Market and CU,  it would have prevented a lot of Brexit politicians talking up the Norway option or stating of course they didn't want to be outside the Single Market.  Also, it would probably have meant people such as myself would have to shut up. 

 

However it was left deliberately vague, and so the issue of how close should the EU-UK relationship be, is still open. This gives a legitimacy for Westminster parties to make it an issue, although so far the Lib Dems or Labour under Starmer seem reluctant. Whilst full EU membership is realistically no longer politically feasible, a new Government could still legitimately re-negotiate the trade deal, so that  most of the restrictions being experienced by UK traders and travellers through EU borders would be removed. And the current Northern Ireland difficulties would be resolved. If a new UK Government were prepared to give EU nationals some special status, then it would also be in the EU's interests to re-open the Trade and Withdrawal Agreements.    

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Feierabend said:

A glimpse of Michel Barnier's diaries on the Brexit negotiations. Even from this summary you can sense the appalled insight into why things went the way they did.  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/tory-quarrels-betrayals-uk-post-brexit-future-barnier-eu

So this is basically saying that not only did the public not really have a full idea of how brexit would proceed, neither did our politicians. Extra to that I'd even guess this was all by design as some politicians wanted their way to be the done thing. They wanted it as vague as possible to lock out any restrictions when it came to negotiations.

This is why various options were mentioned during the campaign but they did their best to not have to them binding in any way.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't think they were that clever, informed or organised. You give them too much credit. Ignorance was the fodder and fuel of Brexit.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I ordered a set of 'Line of Duty' DVDs from Amazon Germany, the advertised price was 26.82 Euros, the email confirmation came through, there's an additional charge of 5.10 Euros import duty

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Wulfrun said:

I ordered a set of 'Line of Duty' DVDs from Amazon Germany, the advertised price was 26.82 Euros, the email confirmation came through, there's an additional charge of 5.10 Euros import duty

 

Did they give you the chance to cancel the order due to the undisclosed costs at the time of ordering?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Wulfrun said:

I ordered a set of 'Line of Duty' DVDs from Amazon Germany, the advertised price was 26.82 Euros, the email confirmation came through, there's an additional charge of 5.10 Euros import duty

We've had that on a few things.

I'm just waiting for streaming services to say 'sorry, if you want to watch our stuff while on holiday in the UK, you need a UK account'..

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, El Jeffo said:

 

Did they give you the chance to cancel the order due to the undisclosed costs at the time of ordering?

No, the confirmation was for being shipped...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I ordered a new IKEA kitchen for a Dublin rental property I own there. Scheduled delivery day was yesterday and I had someone lined up to take delivery and fit it. Of course the kitchen didn't appear and after contacting IKEA (not so easy as it seems a lot of people were trying to do the same) it transpired that the kitchen was stuck in customs, having come in from the UK and that it could take a few days to reschedule a delivery. That's the last time I will order an IKEA kitchen unless they move their fulfilment to Ireland. Other IKEA stuff is fulfilled directly from Dublin strangely enough.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wulfrun said:

No, the confirmation was for being shipped...

 

That would seem to violate Germany's pricing transparency laws. I believe you would be within your rights to refuse the shipment and demand a full refund, if you were so inclined.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's highly likely that, however absurd these theatrics might appear, Johnson senses his "Falklands moment" and is hoping for a fillip in today's elections across the UK.

 

 

183187762_5824940907516822_2701724797483980471_n.jpg

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I expect that the French will fart in his general direction.

 

I know I would.

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have to respect people that keep on following the conservatives and Johnson.

Amazing digging and focus skills. Just when you think the idiot can't do anything more embarrassing.. 

 

Even the article changes it's mind . The ship is formidable in the picture, but an older patrol vessel in the text. It also took two people to write it. Imagine that, 4 brain cells working together.

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now