Brexit: The fallout

17,591 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, White Rose of Yorkshire said:

 

On ONE this evening at 9.00 p.m. Brexit film Chronik eines Abschieds with Benedict Cumberbach.

 

Benedict Cumberbatch als Spindoktor der Leave-Kampagne: der Film zum am 31. Januar vollzogenen Austritt der Briten aus der EU.

 

 

 

 

I remember something along the lines of him sitting on the floor in a wardrobe so that he could "channel in to the energy of the nation" 

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1 hour ago, Feierabend said:

On his way into Narnia was he?


The sunny uplands, the prat, and the wardrobe 

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3 hours ago, Mackle said:


The sunny uplands, the prat, and the wardrobe 

Don't you mean the liar, the prat and the wardrobe... :lol:  

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Wanker. Though those who were warned and still supported or voted for Brexit will have the blood on their hands too.

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On 4/10/2021, 5:41:43, murphaph said:

Wanker. Though those who were warned and still supported or voted for Brexit will have the blood on their hands too.

 

Does everybody that voted for Brexit (17.4m people) have blood on their hands? People vote for what is best for them. Every vote has consequences, that's the nature of voting. Sure, we should hold MP's and those of power and influence to task. But saying that an insurance salesman from Durham has blood on his hands for voting for the UK to leave the European Union is neither fair nor correct.

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6 hours ago, theGman said:

 

Does everybody that voted for Brexit (17.4m people) have blood on their hands? 

No. To be fair I said anybody that was warned about the violence that would inevitably return to Northern Ireland and still went ahead and voted for it would have blood on their hands. I think that's fair enough. 

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I think the NI question will not be that important to the government at the moment as they have an 80 seat majority and do not the NI votes in parliament. I would expect the government to be focused on creating a situation where they no longer need them. 

At the moment I get the feeling that the government are not so happy with what is happening as it is causing some bad press for them, but equally happy as they can blame the EU. 

That if nothing else should at least show the people (voters) hat their worth is (and how that worth can be lost), the politicians already know this.  

Ideally all those voters would be able to look back on the last 20 years  and see just how valuable they are the current government. It wouldn't help them much, with the 80 seat majority and a PM who may not care what happens after he goes, they are stuck with how things are.  

 

It isn't as if this is a surprise. The rules were known, the potential risks of what is happening were known, the UK government just wanted to force the issue and hoped the EU would bend over backwards. It's typical 'go as far as you can and only stop when someone stops you' behavior. The government has tried this with the exam results (among other issues) and it's been 'open mouth, listen to see if anyone screams'  stuff. If no one does, then we carry on, and on, and on. They will go on as far as they can for as long as they can.

 

They have an 80 seat majority, it's a wonder that they are actually listening to anyone. Although I think that is Boris, the party has an 80 seat majority, if he looks to be the one to lose that, they will get rid of him, blame everything on him, and promise to change things.

 

And idiots will vote for them again. It takes an idiot to vote for a PM that says 'big mistakes made in the past' and get people to vote for him, given that he was in government and supported all those mistakes. 

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48 minutes ago, cb6dba said:

I think the NI question will not be that important to the government at the moment as they have an 80 seat majority and do not the NI votes in parliament. I would expect the government to be focused on creating a situation where they no longer need them. 

It may end up being important if bombs start going off on the mainland again.

48 minutes ago, cb6dba said:

At the moment I get the feeling that the government are not so happy with what is happening as it is causing some bad press for them, but equally happy as they can blame the EU. 

And their moronic supporters suck it up hook line and sinker.

48 minutes ago, cb6dba said:

The rules were known, the potential risks of what is happening were known, the UK government just wanted to force the issue and hoped the EU would bend over backwards.

It was arrogance pure and simple in the same vein as "They need us more than we need them".

48 minutes ago, cb6dba said:

The government has tried this with the exam results (among other issues) and it's been 'open mouth, listen to see if anyone screams'  stuff. If no one does, then we carry on, and on, and on.

They do this with virtually every announcement.

What they´re going to announce leaks,then they change it or Johnson makes a speech without making the points really clear and they change anything that gets really bad reaction.

48 minutes ago, cb6dba said:

They have an 80 seat majority, it's a wonder that they are actually listening to anyone.

Rather than being a govt for the people they´re a govt for that 80 seat majority.As long as they´re happy then they don´t give a fuck about the people who didn´t vote for them.

48 minutes ago, cb6dba said:

. It takes an idiot to vote for a PM that says 'big mistakes made in the past' and get people to vote for him, given that he was in government and supported all those mistakes. 

 

A nice little list of Johnsons cock ups...

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/25-blunders-scandals-crises-boris-23154375

From the Mirror unfortunately but best concise list.

 

Some of his cock ups are comical but some of them are downright evil.

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50 minutes ago, Keleth said:

It may end up being important if bombs start going off on the mainland again.

They'd just see that as a reason to show strength to make people nod and think something is being done.

The people making the decisions are the ones with the security (and, strangely, in the corona world, the ones with access to the best healthcare) , the rest of us however, well, you makes your vote and takes your chances.

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1 hour ago, Keleth said:

It may end up being important if bombs start going off on the mainland again.

 

That is something I truly fear. 

I firmly believe that unless the Govt. and political parties involved

don't get their act together, then real bloodshed and atrocities

will return to NI as well as the UK mainland

and the 60's and 70's will be repeated.

 

There are too many trigger happy louts happy to jump on a bandwagon

whatever the cause. Last time, the IRA et al sent warnings before (most) bombings.

 

Why would they this time after ISIS has shown them the new way forward?

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Violent people are violent because they want to be. Or can’t help it because they grew up in a violent background. But they must find a way out - violence is useless.

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16 hours ago, murphaph said:

No. To be fair I said anybody that was warned about the violence that would inevitably return to Northern Ireland and still went ahead and voted for it would have blood on their hands. I think that's fair enough. 

 

Well, I think it's a tough one. Depending on your news sources and depending on your ability/desire to analyse the consequences of your decisions then that could apply to anyone who voted for Brexit. It was, at least to me (many of us), an obvious potential consequence of Brexit. For that reason alone it was a stupid decision. Buuuttt, I also think people have to be free to vote for what is best for them. I could argue that anyone who doesn't vote for a green party / green policies will have blood on their hands in the future. Every vote has potentially life threatening consequences depending on what the immigration, healthcare, defence etc outfall will be.

 

I am enjoying the Brexit bashing as much as the next guy, I'm just trying to reign in the rhetoric a bit.

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1 hour ago, theGman said:

 

Well, I think it's a tough one. Depending on your news sources and depending on your ability/desire to analyse the consequences of your decisions then that could apply to anyone who voted for Brexit. It was, at least to me (many of us), an obvious potential consequence of Brexit. For that reason alone it was a stupid decision. Buuuttt, I also think people have to be free to vote for what is best for them. I could argue that anyone who doesn't vote for a green party / green policies will have blood on their hands in the future. Every vote has potentially life threatening consequences depending on what the immigration, healthcare, defence etc outfall will be.

 

I am enjoying the Brexit bashing as much as the next guy, I'm just trying to reign in the rhetoric a bit.

Looking back at the discussion I had with people I know (IRL, but of curse the discussions were online) back home and the Ireland question was never raised/mentioned unless I did it. Even then it was just 'project fear' etc. I don't think most people thought about or even cared. I wouldn't say people don't care (some won't I guess) but only in a 'I care but it isn't happening to me, it's terrible, now I'll get on with what I was doing' kind of way.

Even TT posters over the last 4 years have been telling us that what is happening will never, ever, under any circumstances happen, yet here we are. I can't say if that was just willful ignorance to try to wind people up genuine inability to be bale to work through what could happen. Most people who saw how the brexit campaign were working (win at pretty much any cost) and how they dismissed the potential problems in Ireland knew this could happen. 

As I said, here on TT we had a mirror of what was going out in the real world. try to win the discussion, try to score point and the who Ireland thing is just project fear. Some of those members have gone, some have just gone quiet, which is nice for them, nice they can do that. That has also been a theme though, people with nothing to lose using the topic to cause arguments but either ignoring or twisting facts to fit what they want people to see.

 

The thing they missed is, a lot of things mentioned in project fear were legitimate risks, if you use emotion, in this case fear (like a 5 year old trying to get his friends to do something), you increase the risk as people will not take the situation seriously. They will ignore it, look away and hope it won't knock at their door, it's even more so if they are pretty sure it won't. 

This is where I would say 'blood on their hands' maybe a bit strong and I would not point it at the majority of voters, but the politicians and people involved in the leave campaign  should have known the risks and taken them seriously. Either they didn't (which you have to ask why they were involved (it's like a passenger driving the bus) or they just accepted it as a risk they were willing to take.

Anyone who looked at Ireland's history and decided that the risk was worth taking or was not important is indirectly complicit in any trouble that comes (again, talking about the people involved in the campaign and politicians etc). 

Anyone can test this, go out and tell your kids (or any kids you know) they can play with any dog they see, just run up and give it a hug. Pull it's tail, anything they like.

Not a risk I'd take and any one telling me 'no one they know has been bitten by a dog, stop it with the project fear, let your kids do it' would be told to f*ck off. I can live without that kind of stupidity.

 

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3 hours ago, cb6dba said:

Anyone who looked at Ireland's history and decided that the risk was worth taking or was not important is indirectly complicit in any trouble that comes (again, talking about the people involved in the campaign and politicians etc). 

 

Rightly or wrongly a voter may believe that Brexit will be good for them, their family, their job, their town. Should they then not vote for it because it might cause problems somewhere hundreds of miles away? An MP is supposed to serve their constituents, if that MP believes Brexit is the best thing for them, should they not campaign for it? Anyone else who campaigned or voted for it and decided it was worth the risk for them...is that not ok?

 

Boris is the leader of the country, it is his problem he and should be held accountable . Nigel Farage and the ERG types who lied throughout, they should also be held accountable. But everyone else? I struggle to appoint accountability. As long as they were honest in their beliefs.

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19 minutes ago, theGman said:

 

Rightly or wrongly a voter may believe that Brexit will be good for them, their family, their job, their town. Should they then not vote for it because it might cause problems somewhere hundreds of miles away? An MP is supposed to serve their constituents, if that MP believes Brexit is the best thing for them, should they not campaign for it? Anyone else who campaigned or voted for it and decided it was worth the risk for them...is that not ok?

 

Boris is the leader of the country, it is his problem he and should be held accountable . Nigel Farage and the ERG types who lied throughout, they should also be held accountable. But everyone else? I struggle to appoint accountability. As long as they were honest in their beliefs.

That's part of the point, they are allowed to vote for it as a given risk will not hit them. Anyone can say 'that won't bother me so I don't care', also fine but also says something about the person saying that to themselves. Imagine being in a pub and someone says they want to remove sexual harassment laws because they've never been sexually harassed. 

People who campaigned for it and knew the risks, I would say, as I did, are complicit in what is happening, they may not have set out to cause it, but then again no one ever went out with the thought of hitting another car.

To me, if you knew the risks and did it anyway, you are complicit. As you say, there were people who lied knowing the risks (they just didn't care) and people who knew but just turned away as it was convenient (I put BJ in this category) and then there are those now, having known this could happen, are using it for political gain (which is the ERG and BJ). 

 

What it comes down to is that for the above people, the risk to lives in NI, to the livelihoods of fishermen and anyone else who is being hit hit as a result of brexit, it was a more than acceptable risk. For them the negative was always only ever going to be small, if anything. Farage spent years on the fisheries committee, he should have had an idea what could happen, maybe he didn't (incompetence of a very high order) or he did (was a risk he thought was worth taking). he just didn't care as it was never anything that would hurt him (he only say things do when it looks like he has been caught out, like when he was asked why he wasn't going to renounce his MEP pension, suddenly he was 'why should I suffer more'). 

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