Brexit: The fallout

17,622 posts in this topic

On 16.3.2021, 02:21:23, HEM said:

 

The Paul -Ehrlich Institute is German do you think they know better then the WORLD Health Organisation? First they criticise it, then they ban it then they allow it to be used again and they are supposed to be experts.

 

Yesterday, the Minister President of Baden-Württemberg and his wife (who has breast cancer) had their AstraZeneca vaccine jab.

 

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5 hours ago, White Rose of Yorkshire said:

The Paul -Ehrlich Institute is German do you think they know better then the WORLD Health Organisation?

 

Sorry, but I don't think that's much of an argument. Depends who they have on the job. The WHO has not come out of the pandemic very well at all and lost a lot of credibility at the start of the pandemic, being described by some as a holiday camp by the lake for Old Boys at the end of their careers. Can't help thinking there might have been something (quite a lot) to that, having worked in International institutions myself.

 

5 hours ago, White Rose of Yorkshire said:

First they criticise it, then they ban it then they allow it to be used again...

 

Yes, absolutely sublime. Fear paralyses rational thought processes. We banned it, but you must not export it beyond the EU. And you are not delivering enough to us.

 

5 hours ago, White Rose of Yorkshire said:

... and they are supposed to be experts.

 

There's a lot of that. c.f WHO. It's so disheartening.

 

Are we in the wrong thread by the way?

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1 hour ago, optimista said:

Are we in the wrong thread by the way?

 

:lol::lol:

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19 hours ago, yesterday said:

 

It's a shot deal because the UK will about 4 % of trade in the next 10 years or so, according to the experts, if both sides get so passed off with each and we get a no deal then a further 2 % of trade will be lost.

 

And it could lead to a hard border between the UK and Ireland, which may lead to the troubles coming back

Because of Brexit not because of the deal.  Once they'd ruled out all the things that would have been better for the UK then a tarrif free trade deal was the best that could be done. I was a bit surprised they didn't reclaim more of the fishing rights, but other than that they achieved what they wanted with the deal.

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8 minutes ago, Dembo said:

Because of Brexit not because of the deal.  Once they'd ruled out all the things that would have been better for the UK then a tarrif free trade deal was the best that could be done. I was a bit surprised they didn't reclaim more of the fishing rights, but other than that they achieved what they wanted with the deal.

Brexit lead to that shit deal, UK exports to  EU down by 40%.

Intresting story today, UK going to spend 3 % on defense in future. 

 

Humm, don't remember that being talked about during the ref. Or subsequent  elections, I thought.it was about an extra 350 million a week for the NHS, which seems to have been forgotten about. NHS Staff are looking at a real term pay cut over the forth coming years

 

Lies, lies, lies

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5 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Brexit lead to that shit deal

 

"Sir Nigel" said the German car manufacturers, French wine producers, Belgian chocolatiers, etc. would come running... what he didn't predict was that the deal would enable them to carry on selling in to the UK, it was just the UK that would struggle to sell to the outside world!

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The defence spending announcements are a bit cringe worthy aren't they? Next thing they'll be parading missiles down the Mall.

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I guess defence spending sort of pumps money back in to the economy if it's awarded to defence firms operating in country. Maybe it is also to reaffirm the UKs commitment to NATO despite other relations being soured.

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3 hours ago, yesterday said:

Brexit lead to that shit deal, UK exports to  EU down by 40%.

Intresting story today, UK going to spend 3 % on defense in future. 

 

Humm, don't remember that being talked about during the ref. Or subsequent  elections, I thought.it was about an extra 350 million a week for the NHS, which seems to have been forgotten about. NHS Staff are looking at a real term pay cut over the forth coming years

 

Lies, lies, lies

 

I don't buy any of this Government hype that the EU are being obstructive with implementation of the Trade Deal. Boris, Gove and their pals knew exactly what they were doing.  They had the chance to go for a Deal which would have made life easier for everyone having dealings with Europe post Brexit, businesses and individuals. Its what the EU wanted. The EU were also willing to extend the deadline to allow it to be negotiated.  But no, Boris, Frost and Co made sure it couldn't happen under their Get Brexit Done slogan. 

 

Financial services, a hugely important sector for the UK, was completly ignored.  Instead they picked a fight over fish, worth around 0.2% to the UK economy, and still managed to upset UK fishermen.  And even for the manufacturing sector where a deal was negotiated, they forgot to mention about the hidden costs and the delays through all the extra paperwork.   

 

For Boris, having the EU to blame is nice publicity, with the help of the British tabloids at hand. Having egged him on all the way,  they will be only too happy to take his side of the argument.  In the meantime, everyone else having dealings between the UK and EU suffers.   

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51 minutes ago, alexunterwegs said:

For Boris, having the EU to blame is nice publicity, with the help of the British tabloids at hand. Having egged him on all the way,  they will be only too happy to take his side of the argument.  In the meantime, everyone else having dealings between the UK and EU suffers.   

 

Take his side of the argument and spread the rhetoric that any problems are caused by the EU trying to deliberately cause aggravation out of pure spite for daring to leave the club. 

 

I had to call my Dad today as it's his birthday, and it was very hard listening to him going on about Brexit and the vaccine rollout. I'm not a teenager anymore so it's uncomfortable challenging Dad about deeply held beliefs, but when I point out that the UKs vaccine approach did not actually require leaving the EU, I just get "well you keep believing what they want you to believe".  Certainly I don't think it's just a case of us sharing a Brexit Biscuit (yes there is such a thing! Two brothers, a leaver and a remainer, made a Brexit themed biscuit wrapped in article 50) and the political rift being healed!

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Fortunately my Dad is a bigger Remainer than I am. Though he's basically stopped speaking to his brother as they just argue.

 

If the EU now go through with blocking vaccine exports to the UK it'll be the best thing Boris and Co. could have hoped for.

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4 hours ago, Mackle said:

 

Take his side of the argument and spread the rhetoric that any problems are caused by the EU trying to deliberately cause aggravation out of pure spite for daring to leave the club. 

 

I had to call my Dad today as it's his birthday, and it was very hard listening to him going on about Brexit and the vaccine rollout. I'm not a teenager anymore so it's uncomfortable challenging Dad about deeply held beliefs, but when I point out that the UKs vaccine approach did not actually require leaving the EU, I just get "well you keep believing what they want you to believe".  Certainly I don't think it's just a case of us sharing a Brexit Biscuit (yes there is such a thing! Two brothers, a leaver and a remainer, made a Brexit themed biscuit wrapped in article 50) and the political rift being healed!

 

The EU are partly to blame for being slower with the vaccine roll-out, but they have been badly messed about by Astra with their order. Astra failed to deliver more than 60% leaving a massive shortage in their supply.  You can imagine how that would have been recieved in the UK if the opposite had happened. It would have been those devious Europeans grabbing more than their fair share. You can't really win with the Euro-bashing press. 

Its also worth pointing out, that some EU countries have gone their own way. Hungary are using Sputnik, the Russian vaccine.  

 

I still think, given the choice, I'd rather be in Germany than in the UK, as if you're unlucky enough to catch the virus badly, the German medical system has more capacity than the NHS, which is probably reflected in the much higher death rate in the UK. 

 

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The EU on the procurement side has been really unfortunate in two main regards:

-The experienced vaccine maker Sanofi failed to deliver a working vaccine and the EU had assumed it would.

-The EU relied too heavily on AZ. Nobody could have known about the shenanigans there in advance. 

 

The national roll-outs have nothing whatsoever to do with the EU, Ireland for example has literally no vaccine. It is given as soon as it comes into the country, whereas Germany is sitting on a million doses of AZ at least and is vaccinating too slowly. 

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Being honest, can there be any kind of constructive relationship between the UK and the EU with the current government?

 The UK government is acting like the parent in a divorce case that is playing at being an adult for the kids, but will stab the other parent in the back at the first opportunity to get their own way.

 

The current bunch are just treading water until the next election, not ours mind, the US one. They know how the current US administration sees the UK PM and they know that they media millage is not there for them at the moment. They know Biden is more focused on Ireland than Trump was and this has pulled the rug out from under them, at least as far as media coverage.  Any trade deal was never going to happen if it caused any problems in Ireland, that has been said on the US side often, but it was able to be swept under the rug as long as Trump was drowning it out. 

 

It is the main example of brexit supporters going on about something when there has been clear information that it will not happen. 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Wulfrun said:

60585f43d17e7_whattruth.jpg.bf378650e3b3

/s

If you ask me, that's a fake for the media. No conservative MP has ever told the truth.

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I gave up debating the AZ thing on another forum (British based forum, non-political but with a small politics sub-section). I just could not make them see that from our perspective things weren't fair with AZ. Firstly many many posts about how the EU was too slow, the UK just ordered first etc. This is the status quo as many in the UK believe it. Even after being presented with the EU contract being dated earlier than the UK one and both contracts being the same, you read arguments like "well the EU trash talked the AZ vaccine"

 

They confuse the EMA talking a little bit longer to approve AZ and then the decision by a few national regulators to wait for more data on older people before approving as "trash talk". The only concrete (and valid) example of real trash talk was Macron the idiot's claims that the vaccine was quasi ineffective in older people. That was one politician who later corrected the remark.

 

They then eventually say "ok so the contracts were similar but the UK funded the AZ vaccine" which is also only partially true. The EU gave AZ €300m to work on production facilities. The EU had funded the Jenner Institute for heaven's sake until the end of last year.

 

Then they say that the UK is entitled to any Pfizer vaccine from Belgium "because it signed a contract".

 

Eventually they say "we have no vaccine to spare" and in doing so finally admit that they think the UK should keep all the vaccine it makes and also get to import millions of doses from us so it can open pubs and nightclubs while we are still working on vulnerable people.

 

I had to walk away from the whole thread. Too much flag waving for me. They had better hope the South African variant doesn't get established there. The AZ vaccine doesn't seem to prevent mild or moderate cases of it. Nobody knows if it prevents severe cases. 

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23 minutes ago, murphaph said:

I gave up debating the AZ thing on another forum (British based forum, non-political but with a small politics sub-section). I just could not make them see that from our perspective things weren't fair with AZ. Firstly many many posts about how the EU was too slow, the UK just ordered first etc. This is the status quo as many in the UK believe it. Even after being presented with the EU contract being dated earlier than the UK one and both contracts being the same, you read arguments like "well the EU trash talked the AZ vaccine"

 

They confuse the EMA talking a little bit longer to approve AZ and then the decision by a few national regulators to wait for more data on older people before approving as "trash talk". The only concrete (and valid) example of real trash talk was Macron the idiot's claims that the vaccine was quasi ineffective in older people. That was one politician who later corrected the remark.

 

They then eventually say "ok so the contracts were similar but the UK funded the AZ vaccine" which is also only partially true. The EU gave AZ €300m to work on production facilities. The EU had funded the Jenner Institute for heaven's sake until the end of last year.

 

Then they say that the UK is entitled to any Pfizer vaccine from Belgium "because it signed a contract".

 

Eventually they say "we have no vaccine to spare" and in doing so finally admit that they think the UK should keep all the vaccine it makes and also get to import millions of doses from us so it can open pubs and nightclubs while we are still working on vulnerable people.

 

I had to walk away from the whole thread. Too much flag waving for me. They had better hope the South African variant doesn't get established there. The AZ vaccine doesn't seem to prevent mild or moderate cases of it. Nobody knows if it prevents severe cases. 

So basically it is 'fall back to the next point' evetime one gets knocked don by a fact.

 

Sounds like another topic, now what could that be called?? :lol: 

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46 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Even after being presented with the EU contract being dated earlier than the UK one and both contracts being the same, you read arguments like "well the EU trash talked the AZ vaccine"

 

They confuse the EMA talking a little bit longer to approve AZ and then the decision by a few national regulators to wait for more data on older people before approving as "trash talk". The only concrete (and valid) example of real trash talk was Macron the idiot's claims that the vaccine was quasi ineffective in older people. That was one politician who later corrected the remark.

 

I would presume that this is mostly because that's how large sections of the media are presenting it. You also have people like Nigel Farage, Michael Heaver and Mayour Tousi, putting an extreme spin on comments such as Angela Merkel's comments that she would not have the AV vaccine because it's not approved in Germany for her age group and riling up leavers. That is on top of the usual suspect MPs like Andrew Brigden, Mark Francois, John Redwood, Bill Cash, Iain Duncan Smith, etc appearing on TV talking about how the EU is either trying to punish the UK for Brexit or is acting out of jealous spite related to the UK vaccine rollout. 

 

There is also a wider narrative at play certainly in England of a "culture war", in which there are accusations of people in the civil service and institutions (including the BBC) of being rabid EU-loyalists. The BBC in particular is facing increasing public calls from Conservative MPs to be subscription-based or advertising revenue funded.

 

The referendum has turned the country in to a complete mess.

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