Brexit: The fallout

17,518 posts in this topic

19 minutes ago, Mackle said:

 

I guess this touches on a good point, sometimes it's the person giving the opposing view that makes the difference - for example I know a lot of people get riled up by seeing Ash Sarkar and Owen Jones, and so have the inclination to side with whoever they are debating against.

 

A few years ago both Ian Duncan Smith and Owen Jones were on the same edition of Question Time shortly after the tragic death of David Clapson. Jones said things that on the face of it should have absolutely skewered IDS, but instead IDS just smugly said something along the lines of "But people like you Owen have to realise that this is what the hard working tax payers of this country want!" and got a standing ovation from a suddenly frenzied audience (I don't really remember QT audiences being raucous until Brexit brought out such a polarising divide in opinion).

That is also a danger, if the program a person is on doesn't really allow for counter arguments. 

In the example you mention, I'm guessing there was no chance for Owen to look at the audience and say 'show of hands who is happy that this guy died the way he did? Come on, it's only on TV, you cheered, put your hand up?'.

 

Cancel culture comes from people who were suddenly given an audience where they never had one before. When people ignore them, they start crying. 

It's funny that everyone I know who has mentioned cancel culture or the classic 'you can't say what you want these days' never tells me what they want to say when I ask them to.

 

They just say again, that they can't say what they want to. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, cb6dba said:

All these people that said the deal was great must be feeling pretty stupid about now. 

 

 

 

I think I've said on here before that a friend of mine has totally bought in to the Johnson aura, and there is just no debating with these people. They argue that Johnson's deal is for the good of the country as a whole (almost using the Corbyn campaign slogan) and when things like this story come out then it's a further sign of Johnson's "genius" that he can make the deal even better.

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6 minutes ago, cb6dba said:

That is also a danger, if the program a person is on doesn't really allow for counter arguments. 

In the example you mention, I'm guessing there was no chance for Owen to look at the audience and say 'show of hands who is happy that this guy died the way he did? Come on, it's only on TV, you cheered, put your hand up?'.

 

 

From memory, OJ looked pretty shocked, and David Dimbleby moved things on. No idea if Fiona Bruce would have moderated that differently.

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The unilateral action by the UK has gone down badly in Dublin and Brussels. The trade deal is yet to be ratified. MEPs may not be inclined to vote for it at all now. 

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5 hours ago, john_b said:

Meanwhile, more BS on the way from Johnson & Co

 

UK announces it will unilaterally change Brexit deal with EU, risking new confrontation with Brussels

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-change-uk-eu-latest-b1811909.html

 

 

 

Having thought about this, it is likely to be the same story as the fish?

Lots of words and hot air and at the end, more of a Pfffft than a roar?

 

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7 hours ago, john_b said:

Meanwhile, more BS on the way from Johnson & Co

 

UK announces it will unilaterally change Brexit deal with EU, risking new confrontation with Brussels

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-change-uk-eu-latest-b1811909.html

 

 

 

 

The report suggests this has to do with Frost taking his place in the Cabinet as Brexit minister.

 

What if the EU were to say,  perhaps they'd like to change part of the Brexit deal unilaterally?  All hell would break loose. In fact that's what happened when they threatened to do so over the NI land border protocol. 

 

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I´ve just become aware of another consequence of Brexit for Brits: they will no longer be able to cross the border between Northern and Southern Cyprus. Which sucks if you e.g. have property in the North (where it´s a lot cheaper) or want to see a doctor in the North (as they´re cheaper as well) or need medication which isn´t available in the South (like e.g. certain migraine meds).

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Oh really? Won't they just cross over flashing their passport as they go...? Will they now need a visa to nip over there?

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6 hours ago, alexunterwegs said:

The report suggests this has to do with UNELECTED Frost taking his place in the Cabinet as Brexit minister.

 

Fixed it for you. I'm so glad Brexit got rid of those unelected EU officials.

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Hmmm. Remember all the guff from certain posters on here that the EU badly needed the UK for security reasons?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/mar/02/uk-failed-to-inform-eu-countries-about-almost-200-killers-and-rapists

 

"The failure to comply with EU law and notify member states was first discovered within Whitehall at least six years ago, and a provisional plan to update them had been drawn up at that time by the Criminal Records Office. It was not acted upon amid concerns about the “reputational impact” on Britain.

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1 hour ago, murphaph said:

Hmmm. Remember all the guff from certain posters on here that the EU badly needed the UK for security reasons?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/mar/02/uk-failed-to-inform-eu-countries-about-almost-200-killers-and-rapists

 

"The failure to comply with EU law and notify member states was first discovered within Whitehall at least six years ago, and a provisional plan to update them had been drawn up at that time by the Criminal Records Office. It was not acted upon amid concerns about the “reputational impact” on Britain.

Wait a sec, I thought one of the problems we had was criminals being able to come in to the UK and we wouldn't know about it..?

Now people are saying that we have been causing that kind of problem for others? How proactive of us to try to fix a problem we seem to been actively causing.

 

 

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And speaking of security, loyalist umbrella group withdraws support for GFA:

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/AllisonMorris1/status/1367195015999598593

 

Brexit is a thundering disgrace. Anyone who voted for it should be ashamed of themselves.

 

It completely ignored the 800 years of British-Irish history that went before it. 

 

Remember the goons on here telling me that NI was of no consequence to Brexit and that it would all be sorted?! Ha!

 

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6/ It's fair to say the legal action would be supported by member states and the European Parliament. It reflects the strength of feeling about the UK move. Luxembourg MEP 

@CHansenEU

, on the EP trade committee, is saying the Parliament shd postpone ratifying the TCA

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1367419215955828736

 

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8 hours ago, optimista said:

Oh really? Won't they just cross over flashing their passport as they go...? Will they now need a visa to nip over there?

Only EU citizens will be allowed to cross the border.It´s the South who put the ban in place. Apart from that the North is only recognised by Turkey, so it´s passports etc. aren´t recognised anywhere else.

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Sadly Ireland was actually lobbying in Brussels to have the grace periods extended and Coveney believes they were being well received by our EU partners. I would be amazed if the diplomatic backchannels between Dublin and London didn't mean that the UK government would have been well aware of this lobbying but decided to lob this hand grenade into the mix anyway. UK government really wants Brexit to be contentious. Pack of Tory wankers.

 

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1367393168782721029

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Prof of European Law at Liverpool Uni, Michael Dougan has tweeted the following:

1) Most generous explanation for HMG’s actions? Tories are now more worried about potential for DUP & paramilitary allies to plunge NI into serious disorder, than about immediate legal and diplomatic consequences of UK’s international lawbreaking.

2) But more likely explanation (since it fits into clear & established pattern)? Johnson only ever signed Protocol to “get Brexit done” with no real grasp of its implications / sincere intention of implementing it in good faith, so HMG simply places little value on own compliance.

3) Combined with (in general) the ideologue’s belief in untrammelled state sovereignty, where rules are optional and obligations exist only for others; and (in particular) the Europhobe’s contempt for the EU, its very existence being a source for spite and antagonism.

4) But UK conduct is unsustainable. We know: Protocol is result of choices made by Johnson & approved by Parliament; there is no credible alternative; it requires trust & cooperation to work; such trust requires honesty, not least about price NI must pay for Johnson’s Hard Brexit.

5) Yet Johnson continues to cover tracks & mislead public: “The position of Northern Ireland within the UK internal market is rock solid and guaranteed”. It isn’t. The UK state decided (& it was a choice) that one cost of Hard Brexit = NI’s legal and economic segregation from GB.

6) So long as Johnson refuses to be open and honest, certain NI unionists might believe there’s still a “better solution” - if only they can pile on enough pressure. There isn’t. NI unionists need to understand and accept a brute fact, however unpleasant it may be:

7) That English nationalists pursued Brexit regardless of cost to UK itself. With DUP's active assistance. No point complaining about threats to British identity, because the very meaning of “British identity” has been radically redefined by Tory Government and Parliament.

8) Would be right, eg for EU+US to pile serious pressure on Johnson Regime / make clear & tangible price to be paid by international delinquents. But ultimately NI’s stability depends on NI unionists accepting: Brexit changed everything. Which needs Tories to stop lying about it.

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