Brexit: The fallout

13,716 posts in this topic

13 minutes ago, balticus said:

 

Apocalyptiholism - addicted to the idea that the world is going to end is endemic to this thread.    Is @murphaph in a bunker somewhere?    

 

Financial crisis has not been settled yet and not only in the UK.   With time, there is still a lot of room for revisionism.   

 

Last I heard, Murphy was stockpiling potatoes somewhere in the East. :lol:

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Always amusing when people go on about past labour governments after 9 year of Conservative power in the UK.
I blame the Romans, if they hadn't left when they did the country would have had a better start. If only Arthur had not lost that scabbard he would have survived that battle and lived to carry on his rule.. 
Or have I gone back to far?
Maybe if the English shield wall hadn't broken to give chance things wound have been different. 

Every time I hear the 'but the last Labour..' I have the intro from the big bang theory going through my head..

The whole universe was in a hot dense state (much like anyone trying to spring over the last nine years to justify their decisions),
Shit started cooling and wait... It all started with the big bang.

It's like talking to people who have just woken up and things it's 2009..

 The Tories have had nine years to solve any problems, if that's too short they are incompetent or too short sighted. Or, their polices are not meant to help who are complaining or maybe the problem are still from the Thatcher years...

As I've said to my conservative voting friends, they have to live with what comes. They made a choice, took a chance or whatever.
The consequences, good or bad, will come and sit on their doorstep.

Although the best discussion to date was the friend saying he doesn't like socialism after complaining he has to pay 9 quid for an inhaler and a guy down the road doesn't have to pay at all.
He left the discussion after it was pointed out they cost around 75 quid, he only pays nine as the cost is capped for patients, but socialism...

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14 hours ago, hellfire99 said:

 

Please refer to the previous Labour government's track record, the financial crisis of 2008 and most importantly, reality. 

 

My god, you are stupid! 

 

Have a nice evening, though.  

 

The basis being in the deregulation of the UK banking system by the Tories in the 80's AKA the Big Bang. Created by deregulation of lending regulations on both sides of the Atlantic by both Thatcher and Reagen. Created by the financial sector who had got their way and ripped up all the rules set down after the wall Street Crash.

 

My God you are Stupid!

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I just lost interest you two. But it's nice to know you both miss me.

 

Brexit's happening so we won't need to wait much longer to see which way things move. I'm patient enough.

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15 hours ago, hellfire99 said:

You could also educate yourself and find out about what has changed in the last 40 years, but you are a typical OAP abroad and prefer to bump your gums.  If you were really interested in educating yourself, which you are not, you would do your own homework instead of asking The Right Honourable Hf99 to educate you! 

When you come on here trumpeting that the Torys are now different then why the hell should I research how they are different ?

You`re one of these people who makes a statement but rather than backing it up with any facts just thinks other people should find out those facts for themselves.

15 hours ago, hellfire99 said:

Ah! So they are going to repeal this law then, and it will be retrospective?

If you were really interested in educating yourself, which you are not, you would do your own homework instead of asking The Right Honourable Keleth to educate you! 

15 hours ago, hellfire99 said:

This post shows me that you have nil understanding of what has happened over the last 3.5 years / 40 years with various Conservative leaders or British politics in general. 

 

Well done, stupid! 

 

Say hi to the 1970s for me, Keleth! 

And once again you can`t actually dispute the fact that the Brexit fuck up lies at the feet of the Torys so you resort to shit flinging hoping some will stick.

2 hours ago, hellfire99 said:

Why don't the poorest of the EU's poor simply join the coming EU army.

If that ever did happen you do know the UK could veto it ?

It`s interesting how much of the EU stuff could have been vetoed but wasn`t but that must be the EUs fault and definitely not the Torys fault.

15 hours ago, hellfire99 said:

This post shows me that you have nil understanding of what has happened over the last 3.5 years / 40 years with various Conservative leaders or British politics in general. 

Has there been any other governing party since the referendum other than the Torys ?

2 hours ago, hellfire99 said:

Long story short, the EU are planning to drop a dedicated fund for the EU's poorest people while at the same time increasing spending on defense. 

Yes the same foodbank which the Torys refused to take any money out of or pay in to because they say countries can better run their own and the Torys have made a bang up job in the UK (As bad a Germany if not maybe worse) Oh and that`s the same Torys who said people use them because of their own "financial mismanagement"

No one on here has said that the EU is a wonderful organisation (lets face it anything run by politicians is going to be self serving).

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3 hours ago, Keleth said:

Oh and that`s the same Torys who said people use them because of their own "financial mismanagement"

No one on here has said that the EU is a wonderful organisation (lets face it anything run by politicians is going to be self serving).

 

Didn't Jacob Rees-Mogg say he loves them? And Iain Duncan-Smith (by the way, I notice no-one has defended him being knighted after it was mentioned in a post a couple of pages ago) wanted the DWP to infiltrate them?

 

Thinking about it, food banks really do fit in to the extreme free markets that the likes of Dan Hannan salivate over - let the markets decide if the poorest can eat and survive, or starve and die

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5 hours ago, French bean said:

The basis being in the deregulation of the UK banking system by the Tories in the 80's AKA the Big Bang. Created by deregulation of lending regulations on both sides of the Atlantic by both Thatcher and Reagen. Created by the financial sector who had got their way and ripped up all the rules set down after the wall Street Crash.

 

My God you are Stupid!

Reagan not "Reagen" deregulated banking.   The S&L scandal which occurred resulted in around 2000 bankers being jailed by Bush I.   

 

Bill Clinton revoked Glass-Steagall which laid the foundation of the bailouts of 2008-09.   2000 bankers were not jailed in the aftermath.    

 

If you still blame Reagan for Clinton's missteps, you probably whitewash any screwups from Gordon Brown and Tony Blair to avoid confronting the idea that Labour has not really cared about working people for years and you are stuck in the 1970s.   

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4 minutes ago, balticus said:

Reagan not "Reagen" deregulated banking.   The S&L scandal which occurred resulted in around 2000 bankers being jailed by Bush I.   

 

Bill Clinton revoked Glass-Steagall which laid the foundation of the bailouts of 2008-09.   2000 bankers were not jailed in the aftermath.    

 

If you still blame Reagan for Clinton's missteps, you probably whitewash any screwups from Gordon Brown and Tony Blair to avoid confronting the idea that Labour has not really cared about working people for years and you are stuck in the 1970s.   

Amen. I still remember them days. But it does not matter what regulations are on the books. The lead bull sets the ton and it won't be long when all sing in the same chorus. By the time the average Joe catches the tune the song is mostly over and the easy money is gone.

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7 minutes ago, balticus said:

you probably whitewash any screwups from Gordon Brown and Tony Blair to avoid confronting the idea that Labour has not really cared about working people for years and you are stuck in the 1970s.   

 

To be fair to Brown/Blair, David Cameron was doing a Chatham House speech shortly before the crisis hit, where he said that further deregulation was required.  Cameron went a bit silent on the subject after that!

 

Someone that is still championing that cause though is Daniel Hannan - at an Oxford University debate a couple of years ago, he argued that further deregulation of UK markets would have prevented the crisis affecting the UK, and that the crisis was caused by over-regulation.

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2 minutes ago, Mackle said:

 

To be fair to Brown/Blair, David Cameron was doing a Chatham House speech shortly before the crisis hit, where he said that further deregulation was required.  Cameron went a bit silent on the subject after that!

 

Someone that is still championing that cause though is Daniel Hannan - at an Oxford University debate a couple of years ago, he argued that further deregulation of UK markets would have prevented the crisis affecting the UK, and that the crisis was caused by over-regulation.

 

Who was in a position to prosecute bankers after the crisis hit?   Gordon Brown and in the US, Barack Obama.   

 

Conservatives and Republicans make an empty speech about deregulating markets every week.    

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, balticus said:

If you still blame Reagan for Clinton's missteps, you probably whitewash any screwups from Gordon Brown and Tony Blair to avoid confronting the idea that Labour has not really cared about working people for years and you are stuck in the 1970s.   

 

Yes they cocked up a few times but they did do a lot for working people - Massive cash injection into the NHS in '97. Minimum wage, introducing full employment rights for workers after 1 year and not 2 as previously and then re introduced again by Dave. Massive investment in education and the sure start programme. 250GBP paid into an account for every new born child in the UK. New lower tax rate of 10%. For a non Brit you have a lot of interest in British politics and I notice you now don't say your nationality on your profile. So really it does look like you're just here to stoke the fires and breed discourse.

 

So what is the latest in Lithuania?

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6 hours ago, balticus said:

 

Who was in a position to prosecute bankers after the crisis hit?   Gordon Brown and in the US, Barack Obama.   

 

Conservatives and Republicans make an empty speech about deregulating markets every week.    

 

 

 

In democracies the executive branch doesn't prosecute anyone! Laws can't be made retrospectively.

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1 hour ago, murphaph said:

In democracies the executive branch doesn't prosecute anyone! Laws can't be made retroactive.

FTFY

But I know what you mean, and I agree.

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14 hours ago, hellfire99 said:

 

Last I heard, Murphy was stockpiling potatoes somewhere in the East. :lol:

hash browns or fried? Do you know how many ways the lowly potato(erdapfel for you Bavarians) can be prepared for consumption?

Did you know the Kartoffel (for you Krauts) was introduced to Germany by the King of Prussia.

The French were told to eat cake, the Germans were forced to eat them potatoes.

My favorite is Potato puree with butter browned bread crums.

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1 hour ago, katheliz said:

FTFY

But I know what you mean, and I agree.

 

Definition. The Oxford Dictionary of Law defines retrospective or retroactive legislation as “legislation that operates on matters taking place before its enactment, e.g. by penalising conduct that was lawful when it occurred.

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“'Retrospective' has to do with looking back, as is shown by the similarity of its middle syllable to words like “spectacles.” A retrospective exhibit looks back at the earlier work of an artist.

“'Retroactive,' on the other hand, refers to actions, and is about making a current change applicable to the past, especially in law. Retroactive punishment is generally considered unjust. For instance, the city council can’t pass an ordinance retroactively punishing you for having sung off-key in the karaoke bar on Main Street last Saturday night." common-errors-in-english-usage-3rd-ed.jp

We see retrospective laws all the time, usually with a victim's name attached to them: 'Megan's Law,' for example, was created in response to the murder of Megan Kanka, in California.
A retroactive law, instead, can make prior innocent behavior become legally liable, with consequences reaching back to before the law was passed. Such laws are also called ex post facto and are considered unjust in democracies.
Apparently the two words, retrospective and retroactive, are frequently interchanged in Britain, according to Brians' book, above.

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5 hours ago, murphaph said:

In democracies the executive branch doesn't prosecute anyone! Laws can't be made retrospectively.

If only it was like that. Unfortunately, German tax laws can be changes with retroactive effect. Happened before.

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11 hours ago, French bean said:

For a non Brit you have a lot of interest in British politics

 

I read The Economist for many years until the editorial slant became too much to tolerate.  

 

What happened in Brexit and the sentiment around it has/is/will be happening in many places.    It is a general trend.   

 

You will note that on this forum, most people make remarks about countries in which they have never lived.  

11 hours ago, French bean said:

and I notice you now don't say your nationality on your profile. 

 

Would it make a difference?

11 hours ago, French bean said:

So really it does look like you're just here to stoke the fires and breed discourse.

 

Considering that Labour got slaughtered in the recent election, it's surprising that people who fail to fall in to the Labour-good/Tories-bad binary formation are still pariahs on this board.   I don't vote in the UK or the US, but tend to think that the utter hysteria expressed towards the center-right governments there is not justified.

 

Keep making excuses for the "left".   They don't care.   

 

By the way, I am here for the discourse.    Not a big fan of memes.   

 

dis•course dĭs′kôrs″

  • n.
    Verbal expression in speech or writing.
  • n.
    Verbal exchange or conversation.
  • n.
    A formal, lengthy treatment of a subject, either written or spoken.

 

 

5 hours ago, murphaph said:

In democracies the executive branch doesn't prosecute anyone! Laws can't be made retrospectively.

 

Who decides to bring prosecution forward?   Who decides to appoint a person to that role? 

 

How is January, 2009 retroactive or "retrospective" when (up to this point) the worst of the financial crisis was felt only a few months prior around September-October, 2008?     

 

For all the bad stuff said about the current AG in the US, it is pretty amazing that people have forgotten that Obama AG, Eric Holder described himself as "the President's Wingman".   

 

Here is a nice article from the Guardian.   A former Wall Street lawyer failed to prosecute entities which were his former clients once he became AG.    

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/us-money-blog/2014/sep/25/eric-holder-resign-mortgage-abuses-americans

 

Keep making excuses for the "left" even when it is obvious to anyone who cares to look that they are owned by Wall Street.   

 

You know what is really amazing considering it is the silly season in US politics:   Presidential candidates promise to do things when the ability to draft laws lies with another branch of government.   

 

Now it seems that you, @murphaph , may find it surprising that people within a party actually work together, consult with one another, negotiate with each other and then come to a common strategy on some points despite the fact that they are from different branches of the government.    They even meet, talk on the telephone, and send mails to one another.   No way!!!    Shocking!!!   :lol:

 

 

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Now I remember why I took a break from here. Too many weasel words. Neither POTUS nor the PM can or could prosecute anyone nor make laws to make something which has/had already happened illegal. It's a basic tenet of a democracy. 

 

By the way in the UK at least the head of the CPS is appointed on the advice of the civil service commissioners, which are independent of government. The AG in the UK cannot instruct the CPS to prosecute.

 

And with that, I will leave you to it. On the 31st the UK becomes a third country. Nothing much will change overnight for ordinary people as the deal guarantees a freezing of current conditions until year end. Then we'll see for real what Brexit means in practice. Good luck to any Brits that didn't vote for it.

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