Brexit: The fallout

10,957 posts in this topic

9 minutes ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

No, we shouldnt.  But by the same token whether or not some people who voted brexit are racist we shouldnt claim that they all are.  

 

I know plenty of people who voted leave.  It was almost always driven by a "back off brussels" way of thinking, not race or immigration.  Think bendy bananas, etc.

 

This constant assertion that its all about race isnt helpful.  There is way more to it and trying to boil it down to "you are all racists" is stupid and just moves the coversation yet further from addressing the real issues.

 

There have been several posts about a lack of controlling the message -- this is exactly why.  Leavers talk about issues (regardless of whether they are right or wrong), remainers talk about how leavers are all racists.

 

This thread is now 500 pages. Whilst there has been a lot of talk of racism and xenophobia, it has been only part of the discussion. I would say that has been pretty representative of the discussions I have heard everywhere. In my opinion the ratios have been fair. Because although racism/xenophobia is not the be all and end all, it definitely is a part of it and needs to be called out on. Let's not forget this latest round of discussion started after a xenophobic tweet from the leave.eu campaign yesterday.

 

I gave my personal theory on the whole matter some days ago and doesn't reference racism at all.

 

On 04/10/2019, 07:36:40, theGman said:

The vote was held during the height of austerity. The last 10 years have been a real shit time for a lot of people in the UK. The public were then asked to vote for things to stay the same or for things to change. The deck was stacked in the leave campaign's favour. Blame all the problems on the EU, bring back control, make Britain great again blah blah blah.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, theGman said:

The vote was held during the height of austerity. The last 10 years have been a real shit time for a lot of people in the UK. ...

 

 

It was also during the European refugee crisis, when the EU was failing to control the situation or even have a plan in place.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

It was also during the European refugee crisis, when the EU was failing to control the situation or even have a plan in place.

 

Good point, very true.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, theGman said:

 

This thread is now 500 pages. Whilst there has been a lot of talk of racism and xenophobia, it has been only part of the discussion. I would say that has been pretty representative of the discussions I have heard everywhere. In my opinion the ratios have been fair. Because although racism/xenophobia is not the be all and end all, it definitely is a part of it and needs to be called out on. Let's not forget this latest round of discussion started after a xenophobic tweet from the leave.eu campaign yesterday.

 

I gave my personal theory on the whole matter some days ago and doesn't reference racism at all.

 

Thanks for setting the record straight.

 

Voting leave was motivated by all sort of things that had nothing to do with either xenophobia or an anti-EU stance. For example, Priti Patel's vote was arguably motivated by an anti-"north London metropolitan elite" sentiment. ;)

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Chris Marston said:

Voting leave was motivated by all sort of things that had nothing to do with either xenophobia or an anti-EU stance.

 

As an example, whatever one thinks of Corbyn he has been a lifelong leaver and I dont think its fair to say he is motivated by racism. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

As an example, whatever one thinks of Corbyn he has been a lifelong leaver and I dont think its fair to say he is motivated by racism. 

 

He has been called one!

 

 

Quote

Labour parliamentarian Margaret Hodge, who comes from the Jewish family Oppenheimer, blasted Corbyn in the House of Commons, accusing him of being a "fucking anti-Semite and a racist."

 

https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/corbyn-and-labour-struggle-with-anti-semitism-accusations-a-1224067.html

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

He has been called one!

 

Indeed he has, and I didnt mean to open pandoras box here, but thats specifically anti semitism and I dont believe anyone thinks Corbyn is trying to close the UKs borders to keep the jews out.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, fraufruit said:

 

Because no German has committed a crime since then.

What a cavalier attitude to have towards people's lives! A couple of days ago, a guest in this country who has benefitted enormously from the generosity of the German state tried to kill as many people as possible by ploughing into a bunch of cars and you make a stupid comparison with Germans committing, for want of a better word, ordinary, crimes? When was the last time a German - or, to put in more precisely, a non-Muslim German - did something like this?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, zwiebelfisch said:

remainers talk about how leavers are all racists.

This is exactly the sort of point I was referring to, when I mentioned how remain fails to control the narrative. It is incorrect to say that all leavers are racists, but equally incorrect to say that remainers keep labelling them as racists. It is a really simple put-down to discredit any remainer arguments. Which as @theGman said are stated over numerous pages in this thread alone.

 

However, as long as enough leavers get away with repeatedly saying that "remainers just call us all racists", it gives leavers a simple ground for not engaging with the detailed issues of leaving the EU. It is precisely the sort of simple message (along with "project fear" et al) which gains traction.

 

The point which has been repeatedly said (by remainers) is along the lines that you don't have to be a racist to vote leave, but it helps...as do various other criteria. That isn't the same as saying leavers are all racists or even that there are no racists on the remain side. However, it is really blinkered to say that there are not a noticeable proportion of xenophobes/racists on the leave side...just look at the "Kraut" type posts which were so prevalent yesterday by an official leave entity. See how much longer it has just taken me to make that point than "remainers call us all racists"? This is in itself a demonstration of the uphill (and so far losing) battle to control the narrative.

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, BMurphy said:

...When was the last time a German - or, to put in more precisely, a non-Muslim German - did something like this?

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Munich_shooting

He was German! (possibly converted to Christian or non-religious)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnenden_school_shooting

He was German!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525

He was German!

 

...

7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Newspapers had an article today about blame game. So as it has been expected here upfront now it is the EUs fault that BoJo needs to lead UK out of EU without a deal. Either you all are clearvoyants or his game is a little too clumsy to not be noticed.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, BMurphy said:

When was the last time a German - or, to put in more precisely, a non-Muslim German - did something like this?

 

And if you want a vehicle attack example, Heidelberg 2017?

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

Indeed he has, and I didnt mean to open pandoras box here, but thats specifically anti semitism and I dont believe anyone thinks Corbyn is trying to close the UKs borders to keep the jews out.

I think Jeremy Corbyn believes that Brexit is a way to keep Capitalism out. I wonder how.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, dstanners said:

equally incorrect to say that remainers keep labelling them as racists

 

14 hours ago, murphaph said:

I'll stick my neck out on this one and say that a very good chunk of leave voters voted that way because they are racist and or xenophobic.

 

On 07/10/2019, 23:24:16, john_b said:

voted AfD in the last Euro election, and Johnson / Farage / Brexit Party in the next UK election.

 

On 07/10/2019, 09:03:56, Keleth said:

To me many Brexiteers remind me of the NF in the 70`s and 80`s or BNP in the 2000s.

Maybe not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist but their arguments always seem to be fuelled by racist sentiments.

 

I only went back a page or two, Im pretty sure there are 500 pages of this... Maybe these guys arent a fair representation of remainers, but honestly, the idea that remain doesnt claim leavers are racist is ludicrous.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Chris Marston said:

I think Jeremy Corbyn believes that Brexit is a way to keep Capitalism out. I wonder how.

 

In many ways, he is simply a british Trump.  A nationalist who believes in protectionism and building a society though rabble rousing and populism.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, zwiebelfisch said:

I only went back a page or two, Im pretty sure there are 500 pages of this... Maybe these guys arent a fair representation of remainers, but honestly, the idea that remain doesnt claim leavers are racist is ludicrous.

Why did Farage's campaign used images like the following?

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/3f510b25581c993fae11fe42817a9c6d3780f376/0_305_5049_3029/master/5049.jpg?width=620&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=95fad1226ec034297f9682fc8fd82590

Most probably it "energised" a significant number of potential leave voters. Any alternative explanations?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

 

4 minutes ago, zwiebelfisch said:

the idea that remain doesnt claim leavers are racist is ludicrous.

The point I was making, and indeed that your quotes demonstrate, is that whilst remainers (myself included) might say that racism is one reason why some people voted leave, it is not the same thing as saying that remainers call all leavers racist. Re-read the quotes you selected: "a very good chunk", "not everyone"...and of course your misleading quote from my own message ignored the opening line of "It is incorrect to say that all leavers are racist"!

 

It is patently clear that SOME leavers are racist/xenophobes, and it is correct that there have been deliberately xenophobic/racist comments made by the official parties and leaders of the leave campaign. They must feel that such a message appeals to someone. The fact that there are some leavers who are not racist/xenophobes, does not mean that none of them are racist.

 

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Chris Marston said:

I think Jeremy Corbyn believes that Brexit is a way to keep Capitalism out. I wonder how.

True. I know a few socialists (also non-racists!) who voted to leave on this basis (a tiny minority though). Broadly speaking they view the EU as blocking state aid, and limiting the ability of the state to invest/control business. The idea is that once Labour is elected (!) Corbyn would be less restrained in introducing left-wing policies without the EU.

Most of the arguments I have heard on this point focus on the railways (admittedly, I was speaking with union reps in Derby). The flaw in the argument of blaming state aid rules, is that whilst the UK state may be against subsidising businesses, several EU Member States blatantly flaunt the rules and subsidise their railways. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This forum is generally populated by middle class types like me.

 

We mostly socialise with other middle class types who might well have voted leave for sovereignty reasons. Some middle class types are plain racists of course.

 

Take a short look at the comments section of the Express and you are seeing a different social strata and a very large chunk of that cohort are racists. 

 

Not all leave voters are racists. However a significant minority are IMO.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now