Brexit: The fallout

10,956 posts in this topic

14 hours ago, BMurphy said:

@murphaph: I have absolutely nothing whatsoever against Poles. But I'm also a realist and I know that many people in the UK and Ireland were unhappy about the huge migration from that country after Poland's accession to the EU in 2004.  And do you honestly think the Poles would be happy if hundreds of thousands of British or Irish people turned up in their own country? Of course not.

 

Were you unhappy with all the Poles coming over? If so, was it based on anything other than Xenophobia? I get it, I do. I remember the seemingly overnight change in the population around me. Somewhat unsettling at the time I guess, but ultimately nothing changed. Britain is full of immigrants and the eastern Europeans settled in like everyone else. My uncle complained for years how his neighbourhood turned to shit after the Poles moved in. I politely reminded him it was always a shit neighbourhood, the Poles didn't change anything. It's a simple "us" versus "them" attitude.

 

The irony of Brits complaining about "uninvited foreigners" turning up shouldn't be forgotten either.

 

14 hours ago, BMurphy said:

My experience has always been that a large percentage of Brits are very racist and xenophobic, especially the lower classes. I find this objectionable but what can one do?

 

I dunno, how about stand up to racist and xenophobic behaviour instead of go along with it?

 

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The Brits were complaining for years about too much immigration and successive governments ignored them. In a democracy, everything can vote, even people who are racist and ignorant. Something like Brexit was a long time coming.

 

This is indeed true, and I've argued the same. But that is down to the shit rags talking bullshit and stirring up hatred for years. It's not based on anything.

 

None of this explains why you are a Brexit fan though. You say that unlimited migration between EU countries is bad but I still haven't understood why? This has now been going on for a good 15 years and although people talk about it, I can see no affect on the ground. Family and friends in the UK asked me how we have coped here in Munich with the 2015 "European migrant crisis". Well, I've seen no change whatsoever. If the papers hadn't mentioned it every day I wouldn't have even noticed it happened.

 

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7 hours ago, alexunterwegs said:

Or a survey they read about in the Daily Express about all these EU migrants taking people's jobs.

 

22 minutes ago, theGman said:

Family and friends in the UK asked me how we have coped here in Munich with the 2015 "European migrant crisis". Well, I've seen no change whatsoever. If the papers hadn't mentioned it every day I wouldn't have even noticed it happened.

 

Which brings us back to the fact that this (and other things) are caused to a significant degree by the media stiring things (in order to sell more papers & to to exert influence).

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14 hours ago, BMurphy said:

@murphaph: I have absolutely nothing whatsoever against Poles. But I'm also a realist and I know that many people in the UK and Ireland were unhappy about the huge migration from that country after Poland's accession to the EU in 2004.  And do you honestly think the Poles would be happy if hundreds of thousands of British or Irish people turned up in their own country? Of course not.

 

 

Let's not forget, that when the last round of EU expansion took place that the UK allowed people from Bulgaria and Romania to freely come to the UK to live and work.  Whereas other countries such as Germany initially placed restrictions of these citizens living and working in Germany for the first few years.

 

So the UK actually opted to allow increase migration at this time as they thought it would boast their economy.  Which I think is one reason why the UK recovered from the 2008 economic downturn quicker than some other EU countries.

 

The UK also has a very high proportion of migrants from outside the EU.  Given that the UK is not in Schengen and retains its own borders and visa system then it has full control over this.  And despite promises to get this below 100k people per year for many years, it has been > 119k since 1998, reached a peak of 266k in 2004, and is on the rise again the last few years.

 

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics/#create-graph

 

 

If we look at 2004:

EU total Net migration to UK:                       87k

EU net migration from Eastern Europe:       49k

Non EU migration to UK:                           266k

 

 

So the "migration problem" in the UK is caused by the UK, not the EU. 

 

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48 minutes ago, theGman said:

I remember the seemingly overnight change in the population around me.

Am I the only one who has always lived in neighbourhoods where there was immigrants ?

Lived in 3 different countries until I was 6 (Dad in RAF) but my earliest of memories were living in neighburhood with W Indians,Pakistanis;Indians and probably others that I just lumped in as one of those.

I`ve been away 20 years so not sure how much it has changed nowadays.

 

Funny now how the problem seems to be mainly white EU immigrants yet in the run up to the vote UKIP decided it`s controversial poster had to have dark skinned foreigners.

To me many Brexiteers remind me of the NF in the 70`s and 80`s or BNP in the 2000s.

Maybe not everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist but their arguments always seem to be fuelled by racist sentiments.

 

I wonder how many Brexiteers realise that being out of EU won`t change the countries laws on immigration for W Indians,Pakistanis etc etc.

Or maybe they`re just hoping for another Windrush.

 

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40 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

So the "migration problem" in the UK is caused by the UK, not the EU. 

Shhh don`t tell them that it doesn`t fit their narrative.

Or maybe they`re going to start getting rid of the "foreigns" after Brexit is done.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Keleth said:

Am I the only one who has always lived in neighbourhoods where there was immigrants ?

 

Not at all. Like I said, Britain is full of immigrants. My neighbourhood included. But I do remember the quick influx of the eastern Europeans.

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40 minutes ago, Keleth said:

A question for the experts.

If a no deal goes through then won`t the EU put some sort of border in Ireland anyway ?

 

Well of course the EU wants no physical border at all on the island of Ireland, but still wants that the border is protected against goods which are not compliant to EU laws and regulations and illegal immigration.  (That is the problem both sides have in the negotiations)

 

It seems to be accepted that the Good Friday Agreement means that a physical border cannot be in place.  Although interestingly it is not actually stated as such in the GFA:   https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-46988529

 

So if there is no-deal I don't know what the EU will do!

 

I suppose that there is no hurry to do anything.  Because by default the UK will still follow all EU laws on day 1 of Brexit (deal or not), as they have enshrined all existing EU laws into UK law.  And so it will take some time until they start passing laws which are contradictory to EU laws because it is going to cause real problems.  

 

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15 hours ago, john_b said:

 

 

 

You know, you sound just like the BNP a decade ago.

 

Well, apart from the bit where you complain about the objectionable attitudes of the lower classes.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/4935429/BNP-uses-Polish-Spitfire-in-anti-immigration-poster.html

 

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/04/polish_spitfire/

 

 

 

You're confusing my opinions on immigration with those of the masses. And by the way, the views of the BNP on immigration and race are no worse than those of lots of working class, less well educated traditional Labour Party voters.

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Keleth if there is no deal then Ireland will take (reluctantly of course) steps to secure the integrity of the single market through checks, probably set back from the border itself but of course Dublin will have calculated that the hard border in Ireland will not last all that long as the same hard border conditions will be found at Calais and this will force the UK back to the negotiating table and the first items on the agenda will include special status for Northern Ireland so that border controls are no longer required.

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29 minutes ago, murphaph said:

...as the same hard border conditions will be found at Calais and this will force the UK back to the negotiating table ...

 

Don't underestimate the great British stubbornness! 

 

 

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If anyone would like a "brief history of the troubles" there's a series on BBC iPlayer called Pop goes Northern Ireland which dedictes 30 minutes to each year. 

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As you know well, murphaph. the Good Friday Agreement came along and a wonderful thing. Surely, IF such an agreement was possible, why wasn´t it decades before? Surely, all the killing and hatred could have been sorted out before the GFA? It just shows where there is good will and the right level of empathy, diplomacy and courage, everything is possible..but no...not enough willing and great minds were around and I ask why?

(Speaking as , basically, someone who hates violence and grew up in England and what was on the news every day? )

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Tis a good question John. Some say the GFA is "Sunningdale for slow learners". It could have been delivered 20 years earlier indeed but some say the people hadn't yet suffered "enough" in the early seventies.

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