Brexit: The fallout

12,045 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, balticus said:

People who trot out the flimsiest of excuses to ignore the results of a referendum or election are a threat to democracy and need to own up to it.

 

A referendum is non-binding, and there is no shortage of grounds to view this particular one with skepticism. Many reasons are not flimsy at all. 

 

The answer to questions of skepticism in a democracy is not less democracy, but more. There is nothing wrong with moves to block or revoke Brexit by those who are opposed, as long as they are legal and democratic means. Bojo's prorogation is for obvious reasons, despite the bromides given.

 

There's much too much hoo-ha in the press, and granting I don't live in the UK, but if there were massive street protests anything like in Hong Kong, Brexit would be done. (btw... Hong Kongers fighting for their doomed system against "Xi Jinping Thought on Socialism with Chinese Characteristics for a New Era" have utterly hopeless odds, and yet they turn out again and again.) I don't know if too much 'Keep Calm and Get Buggered' kitsch has clouded minds a bit. I know there has been the odd rally, but to see Brits slowly sip their tea and accept this fate -- and more the way its being done -- is pretty disappointing. Also very heartwarming to all the Putin, Xi, and Erdogans of the world.

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24 minutes ago, alderhill said:

 

A referendum is non-binding, and there is no shortage of grounds to view this particular one with skepticism. Many reasons are not flimsy at all. 

 

The notion that the turnout was insufficient to discredit the results is flimsy (as already pointed out by another poster).

 

The idea that one side lied to the voters (as if that has never happened before) is flimsy.   

 

The idea that a mmmmmilionaire, Arron Banks (net worth 100-250 million pounds according to Wikipedia) had some sort of oversized influence when every major political party, the bureaucracy, the media, the banks, the City of London, and the corporations opposed Brexit is flimsy. 

 

The notion that Vladimir Putin is behind some ridiculous scheme to force Brexit is flimsy and unimaginative.   He cannot even control the Moscow City Council elections. 

 

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The answer to questions of skepticism in a democracy is not less democracy, but more. There is nothing wrong with moves to block or revoke Brexit by those who are opposed, as long as they are legal and democratic means.

 

As long as the moves are legal, that seems fine, BUT

 

1.   Unless there are irregularities which go beyond the normal irregularities of a UK election, the validity of the result should stand.   There needs to be a difference between "we don't like the result so it is invalid" versus "there are indeed statistically significant irregularities in the results".   

 

2.   Every referendum from here on out will be viewed as the first step toward getting something changed, which will then face enormous bureaucratic procedures, court challenges and other hindrances to  implementation of  the results if the vote goes against the power base.     This is precisely the idea that people will stop voting when they recognize that the elites will block measures which go against elite interests.  

 

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Bojo's prorogation is for obvious reasons, despite the bromides given.

 

If it is not ruled to be illegal, then he is simply using a legal political tactic to implement the results of the vote.   

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There's much too much hoo-ha in the press, and granting I don't live in the UK, but if there were massive street protests anything like in Hong Kong, Brexit would be done. 

 

I know there has been the odd rally, but to see Brits slowly sip their tea and accept this fate -- and more the way its being done -- is pretty disappointing. Also very heartwarming to all the Putin, Xi, and Erdogans of the world.

 

As far as I know, issues like this are decided (at least partially) at the ballot box.   Elections have consequences.    If you want a system where people take the streets after elections don't go their way and overturn the results, you are not advocating democracy, but rather, mob rule.   

 

This was not driven by a strongman.   Brexit was voted in by a thin margin.   Your comparisons to Putin, Xi, and Erdogan are not applicable.  

 

If people don't like Brexit, i would find it compelling if they would argue that the British people temporarily lost their minds and voted for something against their own interests.   Blaming it on issues of procedure, deception, foreign influence, campaign financing, or strongman tactics is not correct.   Maybe the voters just f**cked up.   

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6 minutes ago, balticus said:

This was not driven by a strongman.

 

No, it was driven by lies. 

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11 minutes ago, AlexTr said:

 

No, it was driven by lies. 

 

Politicians lie and have done so since forever.   Nothing new or remarkable. 

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30 minutes ago, balticus said:

The notion that the turnout was insufficient to discredit the results is flimsy (as already pointed out by another poster).

 

To contest the results, it is not flimsy at all. It is really a thin margin.

 

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The idea that one side lied to the voters (as if that has never happened before) is flimsy.   

 

Not flimsy.

 

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The idea that a mmmmmilionaire, Arron Banks (net worth 100-250 million pounds according to Wikipedia) had some sort of oversized influence when every major political party, the bureaucracy, the media, the banks, the City of London, and the corporations opposed Brexit is flimsy.

 

You sure have a funny definition of flimsy! 

 

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The notion that Vladimir Putin is behind some ridiculous scheme to force Brexit is flimsy and unimaginative.   He cannot even control the Moscow City Council elections. 

 

Do we read the same news? Wait, I already know we don't. :P

 

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As long as the moves are legal, that seems fine, BUT

 

1.   Unless there are irregularities which go beyond the normal irregularities of a UK election, the validity of the result should stand.   There needs to be a difference between "we don't like the result so it is invalid" versus "there are indeed statistically significant irregularities in the results".   

 

Again, a referendum is non-binding, and there seems more than enough contention about the results to re-consider. Statistically, it is fair to say the simple majority of Brits don't want Brexit, and the majority certainly don't want a no-deal Brexit minus all the "cake and eat it too" promises.

 

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2.   Every referendum from here on out will be viewed as the first step toward getting something changed, which will then face enormous bureaucratic procedures, court challenges and other hindrances to implementation of the results if the vote goes against the power base. This is precisely the idea that people will stop voting when they recognize that the elites will block measures which go against elite interests.  

 

Elite interests like no-deal Brexit? 

 

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If it is not ruled to be illegal, then he is simply using a legal political tactic to implement the results of the vote.

 

Yes, those are the bromides. Nothing to see here, move along.

 

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As far as I know, issues like this are decided (at least partially) at the ballot box.   Elections have consequences.    If you want a system where people take the streets after elections don't go their way and overturn the results, you are not advocating democracy, but rather, mob rule.

I didn't say torches, pitchforks and lynch mobs, I said street protests. Since Bojo and pals are claiming to act on behalf of the people, then 'the people' should show what they think, especially given their elected representatives have been blocked by a parliamentary procedure obviously being used to stymie debate and (re)action. 

 

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This was not driven by a strongman.   Brexit was voted in by a thin margin.   Your comparisons to Putin, Xi, and Erdogan are not applicable.  

 

That was not my point. Rather they revel in displays of ineffectual democracy lest their own people get any funny ideas. And of growing splinters in the West. Comparisons to 'strongmen', well only maybe in Bojo's dreams, and most certainly in Farage's.

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5 minutes ago, balticus said:

Some Politicians lie and have done so since forever.   Nothing new or remarkable.

 

And therefore it's OK, play on. 

ftfy.

 

 

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13 hours ago, balticus said:

The idea that one side lied to the voters (as if that has never happened before) is flimsy.

 

13 hours ago, balticus said:

Politicians lie and have done so since forever.   Nothing new or remarkable

This is why democracy doesn`t exist as such anymore.

Not only do politicians lie and cheat but they have somehow got away with making the voters think it is an acceptable thing to happen.

In fact many of the best liars are held up as some sort of deity because they lied and cheated better than the others.

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17 hours ago, alderhill said:

ftfy.

 

 

Please stop quoting balticus, you'll have him believing that his posts actually matter...

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13 minutes ago, Kommentarlos said:

The "Irish question" raises its ugly head once again.

 

Riots break out in Glasgow:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/31/riot-police-out-in-glasgow-as-irish-unity-march

That's the trouble with Glasgow, after William of Orange turned up in Ireland, a lot of Catholic Irish went to Catholic Scotland and Glasgow in particular so the Irish problem moved across the Irish Sea. hence why being a Rangers or Celtic supporter can have serious consequences.

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1 hour ago, French bean said:

That's the trouble with Glasgow, after William of Orange turned up in Ireland, a lot of Catholic Irish went to Catholic Scotland and Glasgow in particular so the Irish problem moved across the Irish Sea. hence why being a Rangers or Celtic supporter can have serious consequences.

 

That is the trouble with deranged minorities everywhere.

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6 minutes ago, Kommentarlos said:

 

That is the trouble with deranged minorities everywhere.

 

Because there's no problem with deranged majorities? Tsk, tsk! Why be selective?

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56 minutes ago, AlexTr said:

 

Because there's no problem with deranged majorities? Tsk, tsk! Why be selective?

 

Deranged majorities? That would be another thread. Here you go:

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Kommentarlos said:

 

Deranged majorities? That would be another thread. Here you go:

 

 

 

 

At least you're smart enough to understand that the people who hate Trump are the majority. I'll give you that.

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1 hour ago, AlexTr said:

 

At least you're smart enough to understand that the people who hate Trump are the majority. I'll give you that.

 

You seem to have got a little lost here. Let me give you a hand.

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17 minutes ago, Kommentarlos said:

 

You seem to have got a little lost here. Let me give you a hand.

 

Allow me to return the favor.

 

What Leavers and Trumpanzees have in common.

 

It's not merely a love for authoritarianism, but it doesn't hurt to remind us all that they do love being told what to do and preferably by just one ridiculous white guy.

 

Lest we forget, GRU had their grubby little hands in there, too.

 

Is all that on topic enough for ya', sweet cheeks?

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