Brexit: The fallout

12,752 posts in this topic

This would be funny if it wasn't so serious and flies in the face of all those Brexiteers who say the country wants to leave:

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/254329

So far it has 20,655 votes against the prorogue parliament petition which has 1.5 million votes.

 

I really hate the false argument that the country voted for it. No it didn't, only 17M did, 40 odd million didn't vote for it and out of those that did,a number are now against it. Why are these tossers being listened to? There are so many similarities between now and the 1930's it starting to get worrying.

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3 minutes ago, French bean said:

 

 

I really hate the false argument that the country voted for it. No it didn't, only 17M did, 40 odd million didn't vote for it and out of those that did,a number are now against it. Why are these tossers being listened to? There are so many similarities between now and the 1930's it starting to get worrying.

 

I always believed that those who didn't vote at all are actually clandestine remainers. Surely if the non-voters were pro-Brexit they would have made the effort to vote for it -- not voting means they were basically content with the status quo, and simply weren't interested in change. 

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Not only that but the remain voters knew exactly what they were all voting for as it was the status quo. The leave voters voted for all sorts of promised versions of Brexit and very few people promised no deal WTO exit. In fact most categorically denied it would come to that.

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1 hour ago, French bean said:

 

I really hate the false argument that the country voted for it. No it didn't, only 17M did, 40 odd million didn't vote for it and out of those that did,a number are now against it. Why are these tossers being listened to?

 

Thats not how democracy works.  It was I believe the highest turnout in absolute numbers the uk had at that time ever had in an election.

 

How the referendum should have been run, needing more than a simple majority or whatever could be argued but the fact is it was run the way it was and the country did vote to leave.  Sorry but its true.

 

Where were you in 1997 when Blair become PM with only 13.5M votes, were you then saying 

 

1 hour ago, French bean said:

I really hate the false argument that the country voted for it. No it didn't, only 13.5M did

 

I dont believe it.  You, like everyone else accept election results as being the will of the people except in certain key cases where you lie to yourself.

 

You dont have to like the result, but please dont BS.  The country voted to leave, and had it been any other election or any other result you would be 100% ok with it.

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Yes the country voted to leave and I accepted that vote at the time because they were the rules. However, when the facts came out that what was promised wasn't going to be delivered and the No campaign blatantly lied along with dodgy funding then I became more uneasy. Then to find out that those in power really pushing for it also have a vested interest in going for no deal before the end of the year makes the vote laughable.  I don't agree with a second referendum but I do agree with article 50 being revoked because it was triggered under false pretences.

 

You're right about Blair only having so many votes as did Thatcher when she won her overall majority and people accepted things then because of the 'first past the post system'. But they did not blatantly ignore those he did not vote for them as is happening now. The UK does not really have a Democracy as is being proved now. The will of the people isn't really being represented in Parliament. Unfortunately it's like the American system where money talks, no money - no chance as has been proved time and again by the influence the lobbyists have on Government thinking. I'm thinking of Fracking, deregulation of banking, selling off of the Railways amongst other things.

 

Er, when did my quote showing 17m voted for Brexit get changed to 13.5M?

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10 hours ago, zwiebelfisch said:

You dont have to like the result, but please dont BS.  The country voted to leave, and had it been any other election or any other result you would be 100% ok with it.

I disagree with that statement. It is not BS to state that on 17m voted, but fact. Whilst that is the majority of those who voted it is clearly a long way from the majority of the population. 

I have no figures re turnout in absolute terms for various elections (but given the population is greater, than seems an odd term of reference), but the suggestion that the EU referendum was a huge turnout is wrong. Right up until 1997, the usual turnout for elections was over 70% (source: http://www.ukpolitical.info/Turnout45.htm), and as you can see the turnout at the referendum of 72% (source table below) would have been low for any general election up until 2001.

Of course the big difference between the referendum result and the general elections, is that the elections typically come around every 4 or 5 years. Whilst it is typical for a large section (in fact usually the majority) of the population not to have voted for the "winner" of an election (and so would not be 100% happy), this is a big difference. The implications of leaving the EU will far outlast any single Parliamentary term.  

United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, 2016
Choice Votes %
Leave the European Union 17,410,742 51.89
Remain a member of the European Union 16,141,241 48.11
Valid votes 33,551,983 99.92
Invalid or blank votes 25,359 0.08
Total votes 33,577,342 100.00
Registered voters and turnout 46,500,001 72.21
Source: Electoral Commission

 

 

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11 hours ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

 

Where were you in 1997 when Blair become PM with only 13.5M votes, were you then saying 

 

 

I dont believe it.  You, like everyone else accept election results as being the will of the people except in certain

 

While I agree that it is the way it is and we can't quibble about the past, your comparison really doesn't work. The referendum was "status quo" or "change".  In a general election there is no status quo; there are two candidates. People who don't vote don't care enough and are content  with any candidate.

People who don't vote in a referendum are content with the status quo.

 

But it is as it is and we have to deal with the consequences, that much is true.

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6 minutes ago, arunadasi said:

 

People who don't vote in a referendum are content with the status quo.

 

 

People who don't vote in a referendum are content with whatever the voters choose.

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34 minutes ago, Kommentarlos said:

 

People who don't vote in a referendum are content with whatever the voters choose.

 

Plenty of people never vote because they think it won't change anything.  Even if they would prefer one side to win, they think their vote is not powerful enough to make a difference.  Weird.

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10 minutes ago, Krieg said:

Plenty of people never vote because they think it won't change anything.  Even if they would prefer one side to win, they think their vote is not powerful enough to make a difference.  Weird.

 

It's not that weird. In my district in the UK, the Tories won every election by an absolute mile. Still do. It would be easy to conclude that voting anything else would make no difference. Which in the UK system is pretty true. I knew people who would destroy ballot papers, vote for obscure parties etc, just to try and make a point. Otherwise, people who just didn't bother voting.

 

I think that also helps to explain the referendum result. Take the example above (rebel votes and people not bothering to vote). Now apply that to a referendum system and it's easy to see how a Brexit result could come about, even when it's very possible that actually less than half the country really wanted Brexit.

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Plenty of people were not allowed to vote - the people who have lived out of the UK for more than 10 years, probably in Europe - who it probably has the greatest effect on.

 

That's the fair system it was conducted on

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14 minutes ago, theGman said:

It's not that weird. In my district in the UK, the Tories won every election by an absolute mile. Still do. It would be easy to conclude that voting anything else would make no difference. Which in the UK system is pretty true. I knew people who would destroy ballot papers, vote for obscure parties etc, just to try and make a point. Otherwise, people who just didn't bother voting.

 

I see this from the context of my country, the people who don't vote but want a change are actually more than the ones that always win and maintain the status-quo.    Everything we have to do to make a change is going out and vote.  Still the apathy always win.

 

Edit. Reconsidering what I wrote, in the UK referendum case, the Brexiteers were the people who wanted the change and they indeed went out and voted and brought the change.

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4 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Plenty of people were not allowed to vote - the people who have lived out of the UK for more than 10 years, probably in Europe - who it probably has the greatest effect on.

 

That's the fair system it was conducted on

Would not have made any difference to the final result.

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Yeah, but the EU issue is an unusual one for British voters anyway (which is why it was such a stupid referendum to call). The folk who dislike the EU would go through fire and walk over broken glass to register their vote: and did so. I think for the vast majority of us Brits it's either a "kind of good thing to have", or (particularly for the London voters) seen as such a no-brainer, that there was not really such a feeling of compulsion to vote. I've spoken with dozens of folk in London who say that they would have voted remain, but they ...considered remain a foregone conclusion, had a lot of work on, needed to walk the dog, thought the traffic was too bad, were tired from kids being up all night etc etc.  

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44 minutes ago, Krieg said:

I see this from the context of my country, the people who don't vote but want a change are actually more than the ones that always win and maintain the status-quo.    Everything we have to do to make a change is going out and vote.  Still the apathy always win.

 

Edit. Reconsidering what I wrote, in the UK referendum case, the Brexiteers were the people who wanted the change and they indeed went out and voted and brought the change.

 

I would argue that in the UK, in my district, the apathetic voters were on both sides of the fence. If 100% of people turned out instead of 50%, then the result would be the same. That's the general election mentality.

 

But, take that general election mentality to a referendum? Because of what you a dstanners said...the result is likely very different. Because the apathetic voters in the referendum were not on both sides of the fence. Apathetic voters were remains (status quo). If the turnout was 100%, I am confident that the result would have been different.

 

But, as zwiebelfisch said...tough titties. Everyone had the chance to vote. The rules were clear (regardless how bullshit). The result stands. The only caveat to this is that it is now clear that the leave campaign lied, a lot. Hence there should be a second referendum. But there you go.

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It still amazes me that an ultra-thin majority on a non-binding referendum is now being hailed as the "will of the people" that must be followed at all costs, even if the democratically elected parliament has to be shut down in some bureaucratic power play to do so.

 

Lest we forget, not even the leavers thought they'd win and were already demanding a re-vote in case of a close pro-remain result. Frogface Farage himself specifically said:

Quote

The question of a second referendum was raised by Mr Farage in an interview with the Mirror in which he said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the Remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

 

So a 52-48 referendum result in favor of Remain is "unfinished business", but a (less than) 52-48 result for Leave is the immutable will of the people.

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1 hour ago, RenegadeFurther said:

Would not have made any difference to the final result.

 

 

The difference in the ref result was about 1.3 million people ( 17.4 million leave - 16.1 million remain )

 

Its estimated about 5.5 million Brits live aboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_diaspora

 

If they had voted remain - that would have been enough.

 

Of course we do not know how many would have voted remain, we do not know what percentage had lived outside the UK for more than 10 years. So its impossible to make a statement as to whether or not it would have effected the result.

 

So I reject you statement that it would not have been enough.

 

My point is still valid, it would be fair to give these people the vote, as they are going to be one of the groups most effect by BREXIT.

 

 

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Judge in Edinburgh wants to hear full case on Tuesday rather than issuing an injunction preventing the proroguing today already.

 

It could see Johnson compelled to swear in an affidavit as to the reason for the proroguing.

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