How to get German Citizenship and retain (dual) US Citizenship

[thrall 0]

On 05/12/2022, 11:45:40, Krieg said:

 

That "exception" is nonsense anyway.   Because you have to prove financial damage base on the FAMILY brutto income.  So if you and your wife have decent well paid jobs such financial damage must be really high.  So they punish the successful and reward the people who barely make it.

 

Source:  Been there, tried that, failed.

 

Is this calculated at the time of application?

 

I have a contract as an MD at a Uni Hospital. Earn way more than the limit. I was thinking on dropping to a part time 25% contract or so when I apply. To drop down my Netto income. Would this work?

[mako1 864]

On 18.12.2022, 13:37:10, thrall said:

 

Is this calculated at the time of application?

 

I have a contract as an MD at a Uni Hospital. Earn way more than the limit. I was thinking on dropping to a part time 25% contract or so when I apply. To drop down my Netto income. Would this work?

Probably not in Munich. If your situation changes (income, wohnort, marriage, etc) you are obligated to report it to the amt.

Unless you want to work for 25% until you get citizenship (years?) I would not bother. On the other hand, you could get a lot of skiing in and enjoy life.

In Munich they will pull out all the stops to make sure dual citizenship is not granted.

But I think Faeser(?)  has appointed a fdp person to look into allowing dual citizenship.

 

[Marone 9]

@thrall It sounds like, whenever they get back to you, like 1-2 years (or 8 months, or 30...) after you submit your application with your work contract and original 3 paystubs, they might then ask for up-to-date documents and the most recent 3 months' paystubs (like here, thanks @bingomann). Or they require sets of paystubs several times, whenever they get back to your application (like here, thanks @Narjiz). So it'd be an indefinite amount of time in which you'd make less than $2350 gross salary (and that's total for both partners if you apply after 3+ years based on marriage to a German for 2+ years, i.e. Ermessenseinbürgerung nach § 8, or maybe for any Einbürgerung, reading the history of this thread).

 

@mako1 Do you always have to tell them if your income changes while you have a citizenship application active, even if it's the same job / employer?

 

Since @DoubleDTown, has anyone else been successful with a reason for hardship other than the renunciation fee (e.g. that they couldn't keep their current job if they had to give up US citizenship)?

[mako1 864]

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/einbuergerung-innenministerium-deutschland-1.5728020

 

Quote

Wer sich in Deutschland einbürgern lassen will, soll dafür künftig grundsätzlich nicht mehr die Staatsangehörigkeit des Herkunftslandes seiner Familie aufgeben müssen. Das geht aus einem Entwurf des Bundesinnenministeriums für ein neues Staatsangehörigkeitsrecht hervor, der den anderen Ressorts der Bundesregierung zur Abstimmung zugeleitet wurde.

 

The sz.de says the proposal is being submitted. 

 

Maron, actually I heard this on tt, that you have have update the amt if your situation changes. Naturally they want to know. I would assume small changes (raise, new title, etc) are not required. Burying them with extraneous paperwork is a nice thought though (new office, flat on the job bike)... But best to find/keep on their good side.

[Marone 9]

I just saw that, very exciting: https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2023-01/staatsangehoerigkeitsrecht-reform-einbuergerung-entwurf

Should be much more similar to rules in the US. Older applicants don’t have to take tests. But of course the CDU/CSU has a much different image of how it would turn out to be. Could they block it?
 

Following discussions on Twitter, I’m getting the impression there would be huge run of Turkish citizens on the Einbürgerungsämter. No way they’re ever able to handle all that. (We already saw, somewhere on this thread, that 2016 or whatever it was had about as many US candidates as all the years dating back to 2009 combined thanks to this Härtefall thing.) It already takes over a year to work on applications in many places. And some, famously, have no more Beratungstermine for any of 2023 as it stands. So if this new law passes, as excited as I am about it, I expect things to slow down quite significantly.

[fraufruit 41,931]

If it passes, I would probably wait until I'm 67 to avoid the tests.

 

What I haven't seen discussed is the possible downsides to having dual passports. Are there any?

[murphaph 9,638]

The current system is very poor in most places being chronically understaffed and with even straightforward EU applications taking 2 years to process in my LK (and in many others it's not much better). Without phasing in the changes the system will utterly collapse. They need to compel the authorities to have a minimum number of Sachbearbeiter per capita or something. There are so many Turks alone just waiting for this change. The law needs changing but they need to consider the realities. It helps nobody in practical terms if there's a free for all and average processing times go from 2 years to 10 years.

[murphaph 9,638]

8 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

If it passes, I would probably wait until I'm 67 to avoid the tests.

 

What I haven't seen discussed is the possible downsides to having dual passports. Are there any?

There are a few but not many and some are pretty unlikely and for people of a certain age irrelevant. Certain tax implications for example foreign public service pensions become taxable if the recipient is a German citizen. More obvious ones like the increased risk of being conscripted into the German forces in time of war, or perhaps in the event of a return of national service having to do that (only relevant for younger people). There's a legal obligation to own either a Perso or Passport (if you live inside Germany), which could be considered a minor obligation, but it is an obligation.

[PandaMunich 16,562]

39 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

What I haven't seen discussed is the possible downsides to having dual passports. Are there any?

Here are the tax downsides:

• if you receive a US government pension, e.g. a military pension, as soon as you take on German citizenship, it will suddenly be taxed by Germany instead of by the USA, see article 19 (2) b.) of the double taxation agreement between Germany and the USA: http://pinkernell.de/dbausa.htm#Art19
   
• as a German citizen, your worldwide estate remains taxable with German inheritance tax for 5 years after you move away from Germany, because of §2 (1) Nr. 1 b.) ErbStG. For details, please read: https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/253193-rights-and-benefits-of-citizenship-in-germany/?do=findComment&comment=3582707
  
  There is an extension of these 5 years to 10 years in article 4 of the inheritance tax double taxation agreement between Germany and the USA, but since you would have both German and US citizenship, it would not apply to you: http://pinkernell.de/estate.htm#Art04
   

  3. Where an individual, at his death or at the making of a gift, was

  a.) a citizen of one Contracting State, and not also a citizen of the other Contracting State, and

  b.) by reason of the provisions of paragraph 1 domiciled in both Contracting States, and

  c.) by reason of the provisions of paragraph 1 domiciled in the other Contracting State for not more than ten years,

  then the domicile of that individual and of the members of his family forming part of his household and fulfilling the same requirements shall be deemed, notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 2, to be in the Contracting State of which they were citizens.
   

• then there is a flurry of rules in the Außensteuergesetz, i.e. that disadvantage people who move away from Germany.
  Some of these rules only apply to Germans, others to people who within the last 12 years had been resident in Germany for at least 7 years regardless of citizenship: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/astg/__2.html

[Marone 9]

@fraufruit It came up, but most of the activity on this thread has been around how to get dual citizenship against all odds at the Behörde, and looking through the history, the discussion has always revolved back to that main question and how it can be achieved. That said, might it be worth starting a new thread about this related question, so people that already have dual citizenship (through whatever means) can more easily see the question and share their experience?

 

https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/366329-how-to-get-german-citizenship-and-retain-dual-us-citizenship/?do=findComment&comment=3715604 :

On 11/23/2018, 8:22:14, cybil said:

Helpful information about obligations of dual US/German Citizens can be found on the US Embassy website: [archived link - https://web.archive.org/web/20210321014636/https://de.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/dual-nationality/]

 

 

Thanks @PandaMunich and @murphaph! That's very helpful!!

[Fietsrad 385]

If the law was relaxed to allow more people to get citizenship, the conditions could be relaxed too, otherwise the shortage of staff would become even more troublesome.

 

Some countries grant citizenship for a large fee, say a hundred grand?, or if you "invest" in business . Not the German way fortunately😃

[TurMech 180]

7 hours ago, Marone said:

But of course the CDU/CSU has a much different image of how it would turn out to be. Could they block it?

 

That's the tricky question. Why can nobody answer the question of, whether this law needs Bundesrat* approval or not? Maybe @PandaMunich ??

 

7 hours ago, Marone said:

I’m getting the impression there would be huge run of Turkish citizens on the Einbürgerungsämter.

 

There will be a huge flow. In a seminar i attanded, it was presented that, only 2.9% of the citizenship potential among Turkish citizens have been consumed till now.

 

With the new law, expecting 3 to 5 years of waiting time is logical.

 

7 hours ago, fraufruit said:

If it passes, I would probably wait until I'm 67 to avoid the tests.

 

Required tests are really easy. if you're not already 66, i wouldn't bother waiting :).

[Fietsrad 385]

One wonders whether the standard charges for Einbuergerung and tests might be reduced. I guess quite a few people baulk at €500+, even if they can afford it.

 

I baulked at paying for many years, there seemed no need. Until This Madness (bxxxt) happened.

[Marone 9]

3 hours ago, TurMech said:

it was presented that, only 2.9% of the citizenship potential among Turkish citizens have been consumed till now.

With the new law, expecting 3 to 5 years of waiting time is logical.

2.9% ... that's insane, but I can't say I'm surprised after seeing the number of US citizens and how the policy change led to a 7x spike.

 

Alright, y'all ... seeing how it's going, might be best to get in line soon. Flatten the curve ...

 

By the way, going through this whole thread, I found this post interesting / helpful:

On 2/9/2019, 4:27:53, Jack Schitte said:

Financial or personal hardship is the rule. The rule is not earning too little or how much debt you have. The decision of whether your personal hardship is severe enough to warrant dual citizenship is up to the presidium in your district. I do suggest making your argument in German, and then have a German correct any grammar errors.

 

Let’s say you are now German because you gave up your USA citizenship. What could that do to hurt you?

 

There are visitation limits to the USA for Germans. You might have imperative reasons to visit and the USA can stop you. I’m reluctant to air my laundry here but I have a number of them. Use your own.

 

You might have a job that requires USA citizenship. You could lose your job.

 

Social Security, which you have paid into for a long time has different rules for non-citizens 

 

IRA’s and Inheritances are treated differently as a German, as are investments.

 

Maybe you are the only person who can care fore an elderly or sick relative?

 

[radioactive76 73]

Just a heads up that I saw on a US-citizenship haters Facebook group yesterday, the US will likely reduce the fee to renounce or relinquish from $2350 back to $450, the rate introduced in 2010. Here a short blurb from what looks to be a more credible source, and the filing.

 

Also, the former NPR correspondent for Europe runs a podcast based in Berlin, she did a piece in November with some attorneys, affected people about potential changes to the citizenship law. The ending is not so positive, one of the experts thought that the political situation might mean that changes to the nationality law might not materialize until 2025.

[Marone 9]

1 hour ago, radioactive76 said:

 

the US will likely reduce the fee to renounce or relinquish from $2350 back to $450, the rate introduced in 2010. ... filing

 

 

Oh my gosh! Thank you so much for the heads-up. And fee changes can be enacted swiftly. Wow.

 

The window is closing.

 

 

1 hour ago, radioactive76 said:

one of the experts thought that the political situation might mean that changes to the nationality law might not materialize until 2025.

Thanks for sharing that! I think what I understood was: 'They'll work on it for the better part of 2023. In case it doesn't materialize by the time the CDU is back in 2025, it never will.' (Personally, I don't see the right-wing crowd having as much government representation as they think. But I do see a few practical issues.)

[Marone 9]

I don't see it (yet) in the Federal Register; not sure if a comment period would apply to this. 

 

Guess so far it's just an "intention" and they're still deliberating in court.

[DoubleDTown 388]

On 1/8/2023, 10:18:09, radioactive76 said:

the US will likely reduce the fee to renounce or relinquish from $2350 back to $450, the rate introduced in 2010. Here a short blurb from what looks to be a more credible source, and the filing.

 

 

good job to radioactive76 for bringing this up, and extra kudos for the link to Ms. Bitter's recent declaration.  it is a nuclear bomb for people trying the income hardship route for dual citizenship.  

[mako1 864]

Regarding the feared wave of 2nd/3rd generation Turks living in Germany, don't they have some back door ability to regain the benefits of Turkish citizenship if they renounced? So maybe a lot of them have naturalized already.

I am being optimistic that there might not be as many people applying as feared.

The beamte are slow (and/or incompetent) enough without having to deal with more applications. I am not in a hurry but if it takes years, it will be a challenge to keep updating them everytime some living situation relevant to the application changes.

[TurMech 180]

28 minutes ago, mako1 said:

don't they have some back door ability to regain the benefits of Turkish citizenship if they renounced?

 

Rights of living, working, and owning property in Turkey are kept after renouncing the Turkish citizenship. One can not vote in Turkish elections, can not be a Turkis state officer, and most importantly can not retire in Turkey in many cases. There is also an emotional side of it. You should expect a really huge wave, if this draft law will be legislated.

 

I sent out my application on Monday (09.01.2023). Let's see how it will evolve..