How to get German Citizenship and retain (dual) US Citizenship

632 posts in this topic

Establishment of the “general” case, rather than waiting for two years in each individual case, might be a political decision. It certainly makes sense to establish a general case, but I would guess that Germany might also be within the law to tell us to apply for renunciation for the next two years, since there could be a change in policy that could sweep the backlog of US citizenship renunciation applications away before 2024.

 

I personally wouldn't ever submit a renunciation application, for fear that they would approve it.

 

Edit: Although I guess I could always skip out on the exit interview. I doubt they would approve anything if you didn't show up.

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5 hours ago, Berlinexpatnine said:

I'm not sure, but the individual jurisdictions are dealing with the consulate in Frankfurt and should be well aware that it is currently impossible to renounce US citizenship and that any attempt to do so would be met with a delay that could be several years. I can tell you that in my case, the naturalization authority representative brought the point up with me, not the other way around.

Hah, fat chance of the people in Darmstadt being nice about it. You're a lucky duck. But, as far as I'm aware, they don't contact the consulate at all. There's no communication between the naturalization officials and foreign national authorities. Am I wrong?

 

5 hours ago, engelchen said:

 

The standard procedure is that the applicant files the renunciation paperwork and follows up every 3 months (preferably with proof that the effort is being made). After 2 years it is possible to receive German citizenship without renouncing under the current rules.

Yeah, this is not going to cut it for me :)

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21 minutes ago, kaffeemitmilch said:

Hah, fat chance of the people in Darmstadt being nice about it.

 

Nice about it? It has nothing to with being nice. Look up the Vorläufige Anwendungshinweise des BMI from June 1, 2014 and read 12.1.2.3.3.

 

21 minutes ago, kaffeemitmilch said:

But, as far as I'm aware, they don't contact the consulate at all. There's no communication between the naturalization officials and foreign national authorities. Am I wrong?

 

No, the applicant files the paperwork to renounce with his country of origin and then provides proof to the EBH.

 

21 minutes ago, kaffeemitmilch said:

Yeah, this is not going to cut it for me :)

 

Why not?

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Hello, how long did the process take for everyone from submission of application?

 

i submitted about a month ago online and still have not heard anything.

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After submission of the complete package of documents, it took 32 months to get German citizenship for myself and my family members (while keeping US citizenship). And the process only ended because Berlin determined that it was currently impossible to renounce US citizenship. At the point my lawyer received the acceptance letter, it looked like it would otherwise drag on for another year or two and be decided in administrative court or in some appeals court above that.

 

 

 

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Related but tangent: the current coalition is working through their list of agreements (109a, etc) and making/allowing dual citizenship is on it.

One list item was to remove the hartzIV (ALGII) penalties. The penalties allow the Arbeitsamt to penalize ALGIIers for not following the rules. 

But the Arbeitsamt is actually the one challenging the new rule (forbidding the penalties). 

My fear is the coalition agrees to making dual citizenship easier, but the local (bavarian) beamte decide to not follow the new rule. Since they weren't too bothered about following the old rule (they would come up with any number of excuses to delay/deny in Munich at least) this is not an unlikely scenario. 

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@mako1that won’t be the case. The law is the law and they must follow it. Each office or state is allowed to currently bend the rules based on the VwV-StAR which regulates rules and operating procedures. Specifically on the 6 and 7 year residency rule. Also, if you are on ALGII I honestly dont see the problem with denying you citizenship. No one likes a leech. 

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On 3/24/2022, 9:48:20, Funkndunk said:

@mako1that won’t be the case. The law is the law and they must follow it. Each office or state is allowed to currently bend the rules based on the VwV-StAR which regulates rules and operating procedures. Specifically on the 6 and 7 year residency rule. Also, if you are on ALGII I honestly dont see the problem with denying you citizenship. No one likes a leech. 

The example was to show that a law passed in Berlin might not be respected (Deutsche Federalismus) in the pampas (Munich).  It has always been harder in some states to get a dual citizenship application accepted under the current rules (Bayern: almost never, northern Germany is some locations, more likely). Read the thread, results vary by location.

 

The example you didn't understand was to show the bureaucracy reacts poorly when asks to change. Or they simply refuse to change.

 

There are clear rules about who can apply and ALGII is a disqualifier. Whether you agree with that or not is not an issue, but to call foreigners (or anyone) who might have accepted or might have to accept ALGII leeches is uncalled for.

 

The law is the law... What planet do you live on?

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I remember Switzerland was having a big discussion about whether they would penalize immigrants in their citizenship applications for receiving welfare due to Covid-related job loss. I was kind of surprised that Germany wasn't having the same discussion, but perhaps the problems of immigrants just get more attention in Switzerland.

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On 23.3.2022, 12:21:44, mako1 said:

the current coalition is working through their list of agreements (109a, etc) and making/allowing dual citizenship is on it.

 

Are they really working on it? I have the feeling that, it is currently being disregarded due to other urgent topics. (War, refugees, etc.)

Do you have any insider information? When will it be brought to the Parliament for voting?

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@mako1 I’m saying the law is the law and states don’t get to change that. Why make it a law if it will be abused? Come prepared and know what you can and can not do. They only get flexibility with the SOP’s. I’ve read the entire thread already, there’s no reason to do it again. Let’s also be clear here that I didn’t imply anyone accepting it as a leech. I’m referring about the people who abuse this benefit or are lazy. 

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@TurMech - no insider info, I just noticed that in the midst of the pandemic and days before the forseeable attack on Ukraine they started the debate on 219a (mislabeled in a previous post as 109a). The 'freedom day' craziness was on the FDP wish list. Berlin manages to keep the wheels on the road even under these conditions, but certainly a lot of other issues are coming up, at light speed.

@Funkndunk - I wish you better luck then if you apply for a dual citizenship exception in Munich than I had. The Municherin (and likely turkish origin but 100% German and Beamtin) decided that income (which there is a min max to apply for the exception) was to be intrepreted as the income of both me and my wife, putting me way over the limit. I intrepreted income as the the income of the person applying (me). When I applied my income was just below the cost of renouncing US citizenship, technically qualifying me for dual citizenship. How can you come prepared if they decide to define a word differently than the common usage? (And the law does not indicate joint or individual income). Sure, get a lawyer... the clock will run out on you.

Laws and rules are interpreted by humans (with biases) so it is not black and white. In Munich they work really hard to dissuade you from applying under the dual citizenship rule (my experience).

Other ways they make it really difficult: ALGI is not supposed to be a reason to not give someone citizenship (and therefore dual citizenship). But since the ALG1 is time limited, the procedure will take too long (you either get hired and likely your salary is too much or you would have to go on ALGII or have no income, both of which disqualify). And every change in situation has to be reported and that will slow things down. So they slow walk everything.

I am not saying they should make things easy, but they will basically tell you in Munich dual citizenship ain't gonna happen. But maybe the next Beamtin is in a good mood and you slide through. Could happen also.

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21 hours ago, mako1 said:

no insider info, I just noticed that in the midst of the pandemic and days before the forseeable attack on Ukraine they started the debate on 219a (mislabeled in a previous post as 109a). The 'freedom day' craziness was on the FDP wish list. Berlin manages to keep the wheels on the road even under these conditions, but certainly a lot of other issues are coming up, at light speed.

 

A very recent information from one of the MPs.

 

https://www.abgeordnetenwatch.de/profile/svenja-stadler/fragen-antworten/sehr-geehrte-frau-stadler-vielen-dank-fuer-ihre-antwort-auf-meine-frage-zur-hinnahme-der-mehrstaatigkeit

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4 hours ago, TurMech said:

 

The answer of Bundestagsabgeordnete Svenja Stadler, SPD, on March 24 was "we intend to make multiple [sic] citizenship possible within this year".

 

Watch me apply first in line when that happens!

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4 hours ago, Metall said:

 

The answer of Bundestagsabgeordnete Svenja Stadler, SPD, on March 24 was "we intend to make multiple [sic] citizenship possible within this year".

 

Watch me apply first in line when that happens!

 

1 hour ago, fraufruit said:

Sorry but you will be second.

 

:D

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On 3/30/2022, 3:14:45, TurMech said:

That is great! thanks for posting that.

Political question/joke from Bayern: What is a SPD?

Have to gather all the documentation again (they don't give it back and they don't save it, Beamte...).

I am happy being third.

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18 minutes ago, mako1 said:

That is great! thanks for posting that.

Political question/joke from Bayern: What is a SPD?

Have to gather all the documentation again (they don't give it back and they don't save it, Beamte...).

I am happy being third.

 

You are welcome. But it is not yet certain. Although SPD won the elections in Saarland, they still don't have the majority in the Bundesrat, and CDU is ahead on the polls for the Schleswig-Holstein elections, which will take place in May. I don't know, how the latest situation in NRW and Niedersachsen is.

 

Question out of my curiosity: Why would retired people with a permanent residence permit be interested in having themselves naturalized?

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