How to get German Citizenship and retain (dual) US Citizenship

[Joe-K 124]

12 minutes ago, kaffeemitmilch said:

Well, AND that our kids have dual citizenship NO QUESTIONS ASKED, but we? Can we claim hypocrisy as a reason? We could call it inconsistency. Surely, the Germans would want to avoid THAT.

 

There are inconsistencies in the US as well. I know people who've had to wait for more than a decade to become US citizens. After spending several years as students on an F-1 visa, they started working on an H1-B visa, a few years later they finally got their Green Cards,  and after 5 more years, they were up for US citizenship.

 

Their kids, on the other hand, got US citizenship automatically at birth, no questions asked. You will find many a family in the US where the kids are US citizens, while the parents are not.

 

Heck, you will even find lots of families where half the family members are US citizens while the other half are ...  illegal aliens subject to deportation!

[kaffeemitmilch 1,294]

Umm... that was a joke.

 

But, yes, you're right. There are inconsistencies everywhere, but it doesn't hurt to point out that they are indeed inconsistent, and that mitigating these would be good governance on the part of a civil servant. Of course, I don't really expect it to work, but really, it ought to! Germans pride themselves in having an efficient/consistent way of living, after all :)

[Conquistador 11,153]

1 hour ago, kaffeemitmilch said:

Well, AND that our kids have dual citizenship NO QUESTIONS ASKED, but we? Can we claim hypocrisy as a reason? We could call it inconsistency. Surely, the Germans would want to avoid THAT.

It's quite possible that the salary loophole could be challenged in court as violating Gleichbehandlung because it treats US citizens differently from other US citizens based on an obscure and arbitrary benchmark that has nothing whatsoever to do with their eligibility for naturalization in Germany. EDIT: I'm talking here just about the exception, not the inconsistent ban on dual citizenship. 

 

IMHO, this crazy patchwork of dual citizenship for some people but not for others really needs to be reformed to allow dual citizenship for anyone naturalizing regardless of citizenship and greater emphasis placed on German language skills since they are the best indicator of potential or actual integration. 

[kaffeemitmilch 1,294]

1 hour ago, Conquistador said:

It's quite possible that the salary loophole could be challenged in court as violating Gleichbehandlung because it treats US citizens differently from other US citizens based on an obscure and arbitrary benchmark that has nothing whatsoever to do with their eligibility for naturalization in Germany.

You mean, challenged to get rid of the exception, or to bring down the whole ridiculous ban on dual citizenship?

 

1 hour ago, Conquistador said:

IMHO, this crazy patchwork of dual citizenship for some people but not for others really needs to be reformed to allow dual citizenship for anyone naturalizing regardless of citizenship and greater emphasis placed on German language skills since they are the best indicator of potential or actual integration. 

Absolutely :)

[Wackeldackel 46]

6 hours ago, Conquistador said:

Wackeldackel, you get an A for effort, but I'd imagine that in response to 1), you'd be told that you might never have another kid or should then wait to apply for German citizenship until you're done having kids and in response to 2) non-US citizens are allowed into Munich consulate (e.g., for interviews for a visa or to accompany a US citizen spouse to be interviewed for the application of Report of Foreign Birth Abroad), so I'd imagine that they are in Berlin or Hamburg as well. There are also a number of people who have US citizenship because they were born in the US while their non-citizen parents were working or studying there. The income loophole looks good, though. 

 

Sure, the lack of dual citizenship for most US citizens that naturalize as Germans is unjust, especially when one considers all that the US has done for Germany. 

 

Thanks for the heads up re. the consulate. I've only ever been to the one in Berlin, and they appeared to have two different areas for Americans and non Americans. The income loophole is my only real chance. Hopefully the caseworker said it will fly because it really will, and not because of his inexperience in dealing with American cases. Or if he's mistaken, I'm hoping there is very little oversight.

 

In Hamburg, I was told they deem 5/16ths of my husband's salary to be mine, and in that case I would be SOL. Amazing what a difference a couple of S-Bahn stops makes.

 

I'm just waiting for a Zwischenzeugnis from my employer before I make the appointment.

 

 

[engelchen 13,040]

9 hours ago, Conquistador said:

IMHO, this crazy patchwork of dual citizenship for some people but not for others really needs to be reformed to allow dual citizenship for anyone naturalizing regardless of citizenship and greater emphasis placed on German language skills since they are the best indicator of potential or actual integration. 

 

I agree.  I think they should make C2 a requirement for citizenship and allow dual. Then they'd only have well integrated foreigners becoming German. 

[mako1 864]

I've been waiting for 7 + months for a reply from Munich. Technically I qualified (at the time, except for the wife's salary). I have not seen any documentation at the spouse's income being taken into account. Therefore I keep my fingers crossed.

 

Note: you don't pay anything to the state until they decide, at least here in Bayern.(translations etc of course). You submit and wait.

 

C2 as a requirement? Good idea,

aber sollen wir päpstlicher als der Papst sein

(how many Germans can do C2?).

[kaffeemitmilch 1,294]

I wonder if we can use Trump as an excuse now. Say, we give up US citizenship, and his government wants to be vindictive. Is it so farfetched? Anyone think this could be a reason, especially for an immigrant born in a Muslim-majority country? I wouldn't be able to visit family, etc., even with my German passport with ESTA.

 

By the way, just saw the new ESTA today. A LOT more questions than a couple of years ago. It could get even worse - list your social media accounts.

[yourkeau 7,719]

17 minutes ago, kaffeemitmilch said:

I wonder if we can use Trump as an excuse now. Say, we give up US citizenship, and his government wants to be vindictive. Is it so farfetched? Anyone think this could be a reason, especially for an immigrant born in a Muslim-majority country? I wouldn't be able to visit family, etc., even with my German passport with ESTA.

This is an argument against dual citizenship: it's the dual German+middle east citizens who are affected by US ban and whom the Bundesgovernment have to support. But they don't want the number of dual citizens to increase exactly for this reason. The government wants you to revoke your Syrian or Iran citizenship if you can.

[Wackeldackel 46]

6 hours ago, kaffeemitmilch said:

I wonder if we can use Trump as an excuse now. Say, we give up US citizenship, and his government wants to be vindictive. Is it so farfetched? Anyone think this could be a reason, especially for an immigrant born in a Muslim-majority country? I wouldn't be able to visit family, etc., even with my German passport with ESTA.

 

By the way, just saw the new ESTA today. A LOT more questions than a couple of years ago. It could get even worse - list your social media accounts.

I was thinking of mentioning in passing that I don't want Trump's government to get a penny from me.

 

My appointment is on 13 February! I was told again that only my salary is counted, that I am bringing way too much documentation, and I don't need to have anything translated. I can't believe my luck!

[kaffeemitmilch 1,294]

yourkeau, with Trump, a birthplace such as Malaysia could also be a problem. At least, this is what I will say: if they write a better law making it difficult for people even born in a Muslim country to enter as a visitor, I will not be able to see my family there.

 

Anyway, I wrote the US consulate for information on the fee to renounce/relinquish US citizenship, and got the following (in a very unprofessional font, I must say). Would this be enough for the Einbuergerungstelle regarding the fee?:

 

Vielen Dank für Ihre e-mail im Bezug einer  freiwilligen  Aufgabe der U.S. Staatsangehörigkeit.

Bevor wir einen Termin mit ihnen vereinbaren können, benötigen wir folgende Informationen.

 

Erklären sie bitte kurz, warum sie die amerikanische Staatsangehörigkeit aufgeben möchten.

 

Ihren vollen Namen and evtl andere Namen die sie benutzt haben (Geburtsname etc.)

 

Ihren Geburtsort

 

Eine Kopie ihres jetzigen U.S. Passes (nur die Seite mit dem Bild)

 

Falls Sie in den USA geboren wurden, eine Kopie Ihrer U.S. Geburtsurkunde

 

Falls sie ausserhalb der USA geboren wurden – Eine Erklärung wie sie U.S. Staatsbürger geworden sind (Kopie der Konsularischen Geburtsurkunde oder der U.S. Einbürgerungsurkunde

 

Falls Sie andere Nationalitäten besitzen – Kopie des Passes (nur die Seite mit Bild) und Erklärung wie sie die andere Nationalität erlangt haben.

 

Falls sie die Deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit beantragt – Eine Kopie der Einbürgerungszusicherung

 

Die Zeiten, die sie in Amerika gelebt haben

 

Ihre letzte U.S. Anschrift

 

Ihre jetzige Anschrift mit Telefonnummer unter der wie sie evtl. tagsüber erreichen können.

 

Bitte alle Kopien an folgende e-mail schicken:  coxsr@state.gov

 

Sobald wir alle Unterlagen und Informationen von Ihnen erhalten haben,

werden wir sie über den weiteren Verlauf unterrichten.

 

Die Gebuehr zur Aufgabe der U.S. Staatsangehoerigkeit betraegt 2.350.00 U.S. Dollar.

 

Bitte beachten sie das Informationsblatt über den Verzicht der amerikanischen Staatsangehörigkeit im Anhang.

 

Mit freundlichen Grüssen

 

 

Best regards,

 

Sabine R. Cox

American Consulate General

Passport & Citizenship Section

Giessener Strasse 30

60435 Frankfurt am Main

Tel:  49-69-7535-2413

Fax:  49-69-7535-2304

E-mail:coxsr@state.gov

[Wackeldackel 46]

My appointment was yesterday, and it went pretty well. I was in and out in a few minutes. The man made it seem like he had accepted my paperwork on the spot, and now I have to wait a few months for them to check that I'm not a criminal. Plus, they have a ceremony and do the Einbürgerung for sixty or so people at once. The mayor of my little Dorf will probably come. So it looks like a done deal, if he's the only one who decides. I'm pretty excited. Please "press me zee sums" that it worked!

[kaffeemitmilch 1,294]

Hah, nice. Hope it works.

 

Has nobody done this in Frankfurt? I'd really like to know what they're like with dual citizenship with Americans! HELP ME!!!

[Wackeldackel 46]

2 hours ago, kaffeemitmilch said:

Hah, nice. Hope it works.

 

Has nobody done this in Frankfurt? I'd really like to know what they're like with dual citizenship with Americans! HELP ME!!!

Why don't you call them and ask? Tell them you don't want to waste the fee if you don't have a chance.

[kaffeemitmilch 1,294]

I emailed them for the requirements, but was asked to come in person to get them (though they did tell me to take the tests). I didn't mention the dual citizenship because I didn't want them to try to raise the bar from the get go to avoid dealing with a dual citizenship request, but I'll mention it at the meeting.

[yourkeau 7,719]

On 11.2.2017, 17:18:47, kaffeemitmilch said:

yourkeau, with Trump, a birthplace such as Malaysia could also be a problem. At least, this is what I will say: if they write a better law making it difficult for people even born in a Muslim country to enter as a visitor, I will not be able to see my family there.

1. The Bundesgovernment is not going to tolerate this, so I have doubts this can happen.

2. Even if, I think it will be possible to get a passport without place of birth or fake place of birth.

 

German citizens can get up to 10 passports for the purpose of travel if you can explain, why. For example, you are a journalist and visit some unwanted countries like Iraq or Somalia, and you want to hide this from the government of US or Israel. Then you make one passport for Muslim countries and another passport for Israel/US. This is legal. So, if indeed there will be something official making troubles with place of birth, Germany will take care nobody knows it.

[Wackeldackel 46]

On 1/30/2017, 11:41:06, kaffeemitmilch said:

By the way, just saw the new ESTA today. A LOT more questions than a couple of years ago. It could get even worse - list your social media accounts.

 

We are visiting the US soon, and my German husband filled out his ESTA last night. SIX pages. Although one of the pages is just to check that everything was entered correctly.

 

And listing your social media accounts was a question, but voluntary (for now). I was shocked.

[sr5dnptylno 1,648]

29 minutes ago, Wackeldackel said:

 

And listing your social media accounts was a question, but voluntary (for now). I was shocked.

 

AND soon... the passwords to ALL those social media accounts AND unlock password to ALL smartphones, laptops, hard drives and ALL electronic devices. Measures unfortunately necessary in the age of unchecked Islamist Jihadist Terrorism.

 

 US visitors may have to reveal social media passwords to enter country

 

Quote

If they don't want to cooperate, then you don't come in."

Rights groups decry plan to inspect social media of US-bound tourists

We want to get on their social media, with passwords: What do you do, what do you say?” Kelly is reported as saying to the House Homeland Security Committee by NBC News. “If they don’t want to cooperate then you don’t come in.”

 

 

[kaffeemitmilch 1,294]

10 hours ago, yourkeau said:

2. Even if, I think it will be possible to get a passport without place of birth or fake place of birth.

 

Really? I really doubt it! Why would they want to go through all of this instead of just letting me take the simpler route of keeping my US citizenship? And, having to jump through all these stupid hoops that could pop up could constitute undue hardship, I would think.

 

Suffice it to say I will not be naturalising if they refuse me dual citizenship. By the way, is it right that they tell you whether or not they will accept the reason for dual citizenship before you submit the documents and pay the fee (essentially pre-approving the application)?

[PigeonoakY 0]

Hello everybody.

 

I’m completely new to Toytown and would like to get into the thread begun by pianostar69.  The question of getting dual citizenship is of keen interest to me. The loophole concerning the „exorbitant demand“ of $2350 for relinquishing US citizenship sounded right up  my alley at first, but my calculations present  me with an insurmountable problem, probably:  I will be about $1000 over the limit!

 

I’ve talked to the Einbürgerungsamt and they will be looking into the matter. They of course have had nothing of this sort come across their desk before.  The matter will boil down to the question: Will all my „earnings“ need to be counted? My earnings are in fact my German retirement money.  I have lived in Germany for 45 years, with my German wife, and have been in retirement for about ten years.  If they discount some of the retirement money down to the necessary limit, I could get the dual citizenship easily.  If not: how about the chance that the benevolent US government might raise the fee again outrageously to go beyond my earnings? Has anyone heard anything about that possibility?

 

As to why I’m interested in dual citizenship: that’s another story, which could be told at another time.  For the moment the two questions, if you have any idea about them:  1) Could my retirement payments be counted less than occupational earnings? 2) Might the US government in the near future raise the fee for giving up US citizenship dramatically?