Is this legally Hartz Vier or not?

17 posts in this topic

Hello everyone,

I am a Non-EU national who is planning to move to Germany after marrying my boyfriend, who is a German national. He is on Hartz Vier and will probably continue receiving benefits in the future. I, on the other hand, will have to prove after three years that I have not received any benefits, have paid my health insurance etc to be able to get permanent residence (if I understand correctly.) 

 

I don't speak German and my job opportunities will be scarce. However, I will be able to finance my own expenses myself, with my independent income from my country and free-lancing jobs etc. That is, I will be able to pay for my health insurance myself, pay for my Rürup myself, pay for half of the flat we rent and half of heating as well as my own personal expenses, albeit modestly. If I have more income, then I can pay for other family expenses but this seems unlikely. My future husband on the other hand will have to claim benefits, Hartz Vier or whatever is available. 

 

Where does this leave us in regard to my permanent visa application? 

 

Does this mean that we are a Hartz Vier family so I don't qualify for permanent residence or does the German state distinguish between my income and his while they are considering my application for permanent residence?

 

When we are married, can there be something like one person is on Hartz Vier and the other is not? Or am I automatically considered an Harz Vier recipient even if he applies for himself and I am able to pay for my health insurance and everything else myself?

 

Other members have helped me how Hartz Vier funding is calculated on a family basis, but what is my legal standing in this as an applicant for permanent rsidence?  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know that you have to go off Hartz iv in order to apply for citizenship.  The same may apply to permanent residency.  If the link you found is correct, then you would also have to prove that you can support yourself without Hartz iv so at that time if would be good if your husband could work, even if it's only temporarily.  May I ask the reason he can not work?  If he is disabled, he may qualify for an early pension for example.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it applies to permanent residence as well LeonG. This source was shared with me by Pandamunich here so I trust the horrible news:) I can support myself but not ourselves but I see that that doesn't mean much. Would you know if extention visas are granted indefinitely at least as long as we stay married although "we" are on Hartz Vier (with me paying my health etc myself but my spouse receiving support)? Incredible that I would cost more to the system in the long run if this is possible. Jesus, why would I ask for Hartz Vier myself when I already have app. 1000 euro and I'm not eligible anyway. And for him, they pay him already.(Venting)

 

He has been in a rental worker system and similar schemes for a decade which makes it almost impossible for him to get a job at retail (what he holds a certificate for.) And they don't provide new training for him as they think he doesn't need that. And he doesn't want to accept jobs below his skill level.

 

I respect his choices about how he wants to continue his living. I also believe that he has paid his due to the system working under difficult conditions for years. From what I see, what he is offered is not encouraging enough to work as there will be very little difference in what he gets. Surely our relationship changes the situation but at the same time, I wouldn't like our marriage to change someone's life in such a big way.

 

He has had severe health issues but does not qualify for disability. I hope he never gets that ill and we can live in my country at least - overcoming the father-in-law issue.  

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I replied on your other thread too.  As I saw that he's been in the manpower system. I don't really feel sorry for him anymore because I have been in that position myself.  Plenty of people. doing that kind of work are otherwise qualified to do something better but when they can't find a better job, so be it.  I also worked with someone in a manpower job who had a certificate in retail.  He once got a job working for the cable company in one of their stores but a few months later he came back to manpower.  He said that the salary was bad, it was mostly commission and he was probably not the type to tell people what they want to hear in order to get them to sign.  He later got taken over by the company we were working at and is now making probably double what he was making as a manpower worker.  I also have a good friend who works in manpower, has been doing it for years and probably to old to get taken over now because he is nearing 60.  He got his forklift license and is now driving a forklift so he says it's physically an easy job and he can do that easily without straining his body.

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really do not feel much sympathy here. The OP wants to come to Germany, marry her boyfriend , get permanent residence,  and will be able to  apply for   benefits under  family reunification. Fine,  I have no problems there. These are the rules, and  she is marrying a German.

She tells us she has income, and can support herself, pay for insurance, but does not seem remotely interested in helping support her partner. The Op even talked about divorce and how it might affect her position, before they are married. I do wonder what the OP really wants.

 We do not know why he cannot find work,  whether he has health problems, or at retirement age.  It is true that after years on Harz 4, chances of finding work drop significantly.

 I am sure there are couples on TT who have had to struggle to find work, but glad their partner helps. 

If this was the other way around, would she be on TT complaining that her German partner will not support her?

I know we do not know all the issues you have, but  there are so many who struggle to get through each week, but support each other.

 

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, RedMidge said:

I really do not feel much sympathy here. The OP wants to come to Germany, marry her boyfriend , get permanent residence,  and will be able to  apply for   benefits under  family reunification. Fine,  I have no problems there. These are the rules, and  she is marrying a German.

She tells us she has income, and can support herself, pay for insurance, but does not seem remotely interested in helping support her partner. The Op even talked about divorce and how it might affect her position, before they are married. I do wonder what the OP really wants.

 We do not know why he cannot find work,  whether he has health problems, or at retirement age.  It is true that after years on Harz 4, chances of finding work drop significantly.

 I am sure there are couples on TT who have had to struggle to find work, but glad their partner helps. 

If this was the other way around, would she be on TT complaining that her German partner will not support her?

I know we do not know all the issues you have, but  there are so many who struggle to get through each week, but support each other.

 

 

Redmidge,

 

I did not post on a legal advice forum to get sympathy as that would be rather misguided on my behalf. I feel like venting, yes, but that also does not mean I need sympathy. However, let's get some facts straight because you seem to be openly stating that I am asking these questions with an intention other than what I have stated. This intention is to come to Germany through marriage, support myself only and then access benefits. However, having read my previous posts, you should have understood that this is not a possible scenario as I will at some point inherit houses that the German state will expect me to use up before I can apply for benefits. If I simply put that money into a bank account, not invest in anything and live on more or less 1000 euro a month, it will actually take me around 50 years to finish that before I'm eligible for something. I'm 40. This means I'm eligible for Hartz Vier or whatever when I'm 90. I don't know how you plan your life but this isn't exactly my style of thinking. Simply because I'm a heavy smoker.

 

One asset I'm talking about belongs to my mother but guarantees a comfortable life style for me here. However, due to currency differences this income loses its power when transferred to a Euro country. In my country, assets of this sort are sold on a euro/dollar basis but rent is in our own currency.

 

Before discovering people's explotitative intentions, please at least ask questions that to get info that backs or refutes your claims.  

 

I have stated elsewhere -when you reminded me that marriage is about sharing- that I am more than ready to share everything I have with my partner but this is what I have. The rest is my family's asset. Should I ask my mother to liquidate her assets for me so that I can finance both myself and my husband for 3 years until I get residence? (I don't even wish to live in Germany) Should I really do this when the sole reason we shall be living there is my partner's father and his choices and he is (as I have already stated) quite comfortable himself? Is this really a balanced act? Is this how new families are formed in your culture when two fully capable people unite their lives? Where are you from? 

 

I have clearly stated before that I am not choosing to pay for myself only in this marriage. This is what I can bring together coming from a country with a weak currency. And I think you already know this. I'm just happy that I can do my share though. 

 

If I still wanted to have hartz vier at the ripe age of 90, here is how I would do this. First off, I wouldn't find a man that I love. I would find a partner in crime.  Yes, my parent has an extra house worth around 400.000 euros. I am an only child. If I wanted she would sell that house for me. If I put that money in an interest account in my country, it would bring me around 2 thousand something euros every month and I would still not have to show any assets as they legally belong to my mother- but I would lose some in international currency and due to high inflation but that can be done for three years. So I would comfortably prove to the authorities that I'm not only self- sufficient but can also look after my husband - with my family's assets- and practically buy myself a permanent residence for around what, 70.000 euros? Then I would have to count on my mother living for 8 more years so that I get my "investment" back. And then what? Be happy that I managed to get myself 400 euros and health insurance until I naturally inherit something? During the time between my mother is 78 and she dies. These are the thing you are talking about. Should I be happy and feel clever that I guaranteed myself a really difficult life in a country? I have insurance for the rest of my life in my country and if I want to buy a private one like in Germany, nothing prevents me. I am secure here already. If we are finding out how explotitative I am, let's at least do this rationally. You are free to think whatever you like about me. You can have your moral judgments. However, I believe some rationality should bind all of us together.  

 

Also, what makes you think my partner would go into such deals and accept this kind of stuff? Do you know him, too? He is just unemployed, not for sale and he isn't asking for my support actually. HE wants to keep his Hartz Vier which is his own right. At least please don't disrespect the guy with your suggestions because you don't know him. And stop treating him like a victim. We are equally capable people and respect each other for this. 

 

I don't wish to follow the pathways you are suggesting.  I want to follow the path of love, mutual respect and support whilst learning my rights as a person. This is why I'm here. Please stop insulting us by basing everything on "benefits". If I decided to be a golddigger, I would aim for higher than 400 euro a lot and 50 square meters of accommodation, thank you. My partner and I simply wish to be together like all couples. That's all.  And in my mind, I'm not marrying "a German" by the way. I want to be with M. I am ready to give up on a career of university teaching and do cleaning jobs with no complaints if I cannot find anything else. And this doesn't feel like a sacrifice but like an opportunity because it's worth staying with him. And I don't have a conceptual problem with this also because I'm left inclined. And I know many people will call me an idiot and I don't care. And you think I'm not "remotely interested" in supporting my husband. Actually,show me one statement that shows you that I'm "not interested." I just cannot do that with what I have. And my boyfriend prefers his Hartz Vier to receiving any money from me if you are interested.  What is it that you project onto me really? Other people here as suggesting solutions based on mutual support. Why do you base your understanding of marital sharing only on my support?  

 

So I don't want to buy a permanent residence and neither is my boyfriend someone who will or can accept this. I don't suggest stuff like this to future spouses, either. We are truly honest people who wish to live together while offering HIS parent emotional support. Yours - not mine-  is no way to conduct a relationship of love, where couples are BOTH supposed to support each other. I base my actions on this understanding, not on money found from family of origins to the point nof liquidating old people's assets so I can stay somewhere. I am a woman who respects other women actually. If I wanted  my mother to liquidate her savings, I would want her to spend her labour's fruit on a cruise or something, not financing her daughter's potential Hartz Vier "opportunities." 

 

In this, yes, I can receive support from my family, hopefully without touching her solid stuff. I can understand two families agreeing to support their children as well. However, I don't see why the woman's family should do these things so that their daughter can help her adult and capable husband in a foreign country. Why should my family only do this? Why should any family do this? We are adults and we should support each other. This is the foundation for a love relationship. And in this, I'm OK with him not to work in any job if he chooses to do so whilst I am working in any job. We should both do what makes us comfortable really, so he doesn't have to work simply because I work. That's his choice only. But if what I make whilst attending an integration course is not enough, you can't call me a non-supportive person. 

 

Another fact. I have already stated that I don't want to come to Germany for my own reasons. Even my boyfriend does not want to live there for his own reasons. He may clash with his father if he lives elsewhere and we are trying to solve this.

 

I tried to support my partner by offering that his father can live with us in my country. But apparently the guy has emotional bonds with where he lives and wants his son with him. I respect this. (Although it significantly reduces my job opportunities.) My boyfriend wishes to work in certain jobs an not in others and sees this as a kind of battle against a system that has forced him in so many ways. I also respect this. I can do my best to support my partner for all his life in my country or a third country - though he wouldn't be happy or agree to receive this support from me. But because of our currency differences, I become significantly poorer in Germany. What am I supposed to do? Support an entire German family's life choices with my mother's asset in another country? I don't know about your culture. I come from an eastern culture that may seem backward to many. But we somehow learn to value ourselves and others a bit more than this and I'm having difficulty to believe that your opinions represent any culture's understanding of marriage actually. (And I would still have no problems paying if I had the money!) If I am supposed to use my family assets for this, why is this not expected from both families? Because I will gain unemployment benefit for the rest of my life? Again, we are talking about a trade here. You are. Not me. 

 

As for divorce. Actually yesterday I told my partner that I would agree to marry him only with a one-sided agreement that I would agree for a divorce with no contest in the case that he wishes for this. This is a completely inequal position that I should not offer to anyone simply because of equality issues. But hey, I said this to prevent "suggestions" as yours if we ever get to hear them. And he thinks this is a mental idea. It is actually. We shouldn't base our relationship foundations on what others think about me or him. So no, I don't want to marry him to divorce him in three years - and he isn't an idiot. I have also clearly stated that I would like to have my rights so he doesn't feel guilty or pressured if he for some reason wishes to divorce me. Because he may feel bad, given that this will mean me having to relocate and start from a lower point somewhere. And of course I may want to have something back if I'm having to pay for a pension and then asked to leave a country? So I want a certain level of liberty for myself that doesn't make me a pressure on anyone. Divorce is never wished for but it is a reality. I don't believe it makes me particularly evil to think about this. 

 

If you will attribute these bad intentions to me, don't forget about the gender difference please- I suppose you are a man? If I wanted to exploit anything, if I were the person you are talking about over and over, I would give birth to a German child and more or less ensure everything I wanted way quicker. I would do my family unification with my own child and not bother with these things. Luckily, I am a sane person and we don't want children. If you will discover my explotitative intentions, please at least do so recognizing my gender. 

 

 

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I did say we did not know all the issues.  I still focus on supporting each other, that did not come across  in your posts to me.

 Good luck anyway with your plans, and hope you and Marcus manage to  cross the obstacles and  find a new life together in Germany.

 

PS  I am a female and there is absolutely no gender  bias in my attitude or responses.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, RedMidge said:

 I did say we did not know all the issues.  I still focus on supporting each other, that did not come across  in your posts to me.

 Good luck anyway with your plans, and hope you and Marcus manage to  cross the obstacles and  find a new life together in Germany.

 

PS  I am a female and there is absolutely no gender  bias in my attitude or responses.

 

23 minutes ago, RedMidge said:

 RedMidge, you are right in the sense that I did not explain how much I would potentially have from my family etc. I thought stating more than once that it wouldn't be a problem for me to support him if I could but I cannot should suffice for voicing my good intentions - which I shouldn't have to prove by writing essays on my particular situation actually. One of these explanations was directly addressed to you in the other thread before this post: " So, this is not a matter of me wanting to live with my resources and expecting the state to look after my future husband. As I said, if this was a situation where I could earn or generate for both of us, this would be no problem. But I'm not in this situation myself, not in his country."

 

If this didn't convince you in terms of my honesty - in addition to everything else I stated about respecting his life choices that include his choice for Hartz Vier - then I don't know what would make me a credible person in your eyes or how I could have made myself clearer. Like everyone else here, I have only my words. 

 

Still I would like to thank you for your blessing and wish you the best in everything. 

 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, zeino said:

And he doesn't want to accept jobs below his skill level.

 

Personally, I don't like this attitude. I was unemployed when I was 50 and preferred to work for a Zeitarbeit company than live off benefits. These companies can be very helpful in finding a permanent job. After a year I found a permanent well paid job through them. Harz IV seems to be a chosen lifestyle for some people, which is not what it is intended for. 

9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You might want to think about ways you could live with Markus without marriage (e. g. language visa, Verpflichtungserklärung of his father etc.) and in such a way that his Hartz IV claims will not be affected. E. g. like taking over his lease contract and subletting to him so that you´d not be part of a Bedarfsgemeinschaft but rather his landlord. I know there have been recent judgements about when the jobcenter is allowed to assume there is a Bedarfsgemeinschaft and AFAIR it was quite favourable for the grant receiver. But I don´t remember the details. Maybe worth trying to find out more about this (e. g. by asking for legal advice).

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@jeba

Are you really suggesting to the OP that she should commit Sozialbetrug (= benefits fraud) by claiming she's only his landlord and not his girlfriend?!

So that the Jobcenter pays to her his share of the rent just like to any normal landlord, i.e. so that she gets money by fraud?

That she should hide that they are in a relationship and therefore in a Bedarfsgemeinschaft?

 

That is a penal offence: http://www.anwalt-suchservice.de/rechtstipps/sozialbetrug_welche_folgen_drohen_20422.html

punishable under §263 German penal code: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p2174

 

Paging @engelchen

 

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, bramble said:

 

Personally, I don't like this attitude. I was unemployed when I was 50 and preferred to work for a Zeitarbeit company than live off benefits. These companies can be very helpful in finding a permanent job. After a year I found a permanent well paid job through them. Harz IV seems to be a chosen lifestyle for some people, which is not what it is intended for. 

 

Bramble, I think it is only honorable that everyone lives their lives with their values and self-sufficiency is surely an important one. I trueheartedly congratulate you for what you did and am happy that the outcome was something you enjoyed. The members here help me understand various attitudes to work in Germany, which is highly valuable for me. I don't know what sociological or other conditions may cause some people to be more embittered, or what is happening in the labor market. In my country, youth are staying at home longer with their parents and choosing not to work because one person's wage may not be enough to start an independent life at all if the family does not support them. But this is not a developed country like Germany.

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, PandaMunich said:

@jeba

Are you really suggesting to the OP that she should commit Sozialbetrug (= benefits fraud) by claiming she's only his landlord and not his girlfriend?!

So that the Jobcenter pays to her his share of the rent just like to any normal landlord, i.e. so that she gets money by fraud?

That she should hide that they are in a relationship and therefore in a Bedarfsgemeinschaft?

 

That is a penal offence: http://www.anwalt-suchservice.de/rechtstipps/sozialbetrug_welche_folgen_drohen_20422.html

punishable under §263 German penal code: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p2174

 

Paging @engelchen

 

 

Oh my future is getting brighter every minute:) 

 

@Jeba, thank you for your suggestion about short-term stays like a language course. I can do that. However, I would like to really focus on learning the language then, choose a school based on quality rather than proximity to where he lives as this would be a commitment for me that I would like to use properly. Calculated this way, which we did, our meetings are so expensive that he can actually get out of this benefit system, we can still pay for his insurance for 6 months from abroad and can be together for way longer. I would have to give up my job for a while etc etc. 

 

What we need is a long term sustainable solution and we have conditions of making this happen anywhere as much as other adults. We are not separated by wars and other human turmoils. If we can exist in Germany through our means and work, then we do it. If not, we do it elsewhere. But I don't feel that I can agree to be his landlord etc and represent our relationship in a way that it isn't because of non-obligatory life choices. 

 

Basically, I don't want to immigrate anywhere, become my boyfriend's landlord even if this is no offence and lead a life that's not ours simply because we are trying to prioritize the wishes of his parent. This I believe we can do if our rights allow us but I am not willing to find any other solutions beyond that as (to my understanding) it would not cohere with what I expect from a relationship - marriage or not. Plus, my mother would come to Germany and ask me what I'm doing exactly:) She is an elderly pensioner so she has more mobility than I do, I really could not escape her wrath, which can be scarier than any state authority :)   

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

@jeba

Are you really suggesting to the OP that she should commit Sozialbetrug (= benefits fraud) by claiming she's only his landlord and not his girlfriend?!

So that the Jobcenter pays to her his share of the rent just like to any normal landlord, i.e. so that she gets money by fraud?@engelchen

 

I would suggest to explore whether this would indeed be Sozialbetrug. As I said I remember that there was a recent court decision relating to a similiar situation which was favourable for the recipient of HartzIV. As I also said I don´t remember the details though. But it might have been worth investigating, had that been an option for the OP (which doesn´t seem to be the case anyway).

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A friend of mine has a girlfriend who is on Hartz iv.  He bought a house and she rents an apartment there and Hartz iv pays her rent.  Since he is not living at the house, they can not be considered a bedarfsgemeinschaft so there is nothing illegal about what they are doing.  If she wasn't renting from him, she would be renting from somebody else.

 

I can fully understand wanting to protect your assets when you are considering marrying someone who is set on taking social benefits as opposed to working.  Currently it's your mother who owns the money/assets back home but what if she dies?  Suddenly you will come into money and your partners benefits will be cut.  Maybe you should see if you can get a language visa for the short term and postpone this marriage.  You do not have to live with him so that you can not be considered a bedarfsgemeinschaft.  You can rent a room or a small apartment close to where he lives and his benefits will be untouched.  Later, you may be able to convince him to either get a job or move with you to your country.

 

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LeonG said:

A friend of mine has a girlfriend who is on Hartz iv.  He bought a house and she rents an apartment there and Hartz iv pays her rent.  Since he is not living at the house, they can not be considered a bedarfsgemeinschaft so there is nothing illegal about what they are doing.  If she wasn't renting from him, she would be renting from somebody else.

 

I can fully understand wanting to protect your assets when you are considering marrying someone who is set on taking social benefits as opposed to working.  Currently it's your mother who owns the money/assets back home but what if she dies?  Suddenly you will come into money and your partners benefits will be cut.  Maybe you should see if you can get a language visa for the short term and postpone this marriage.  You do not have to live with him so that you can not be considered a bedarfsgemeinschaft.  You can rent a room or a small apartment close to where he lives and his benefits will be untouched.  Later, you may be able to convince him to either get a job or move with you to your country.

 

 

He is OK with moving to my country. I thought we could do this so that his father is happier, the family is more comfortable etc. I thought, OK, if you don't have to sponsor me... 

 

Inheritence, well, yes. If we inherit something, we will lose benefits. Only fair enough. It would be strange to be a couple who have come into money and still claim benefits. We wouldn't be my favourite people exactly:) Imagine us trying to keep banknotes under the floorboard, what is that you know:) But this can happen to him when he loses a parent as well. So, life cannot be calculated on this or be based on protecting Harz Vier. If we inherit something, we can still work and sustain ourselves without draining our inherited resources. Germany does not prevent this:) It's up to us. Maybe, some gender will have to be overcome for both of us. Me not feeling like a burden on him because I'm a foreigner, him not feeling like a burden on me because I inherited something. Some emotional growth is necessary:) 

 

I don't need to meet him for holidays this way. I was more thinking about long-term family relations. 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now