Non-EU spouse's income and German spouse's Hartz IV

89 posts in this topic

Bramble, different countries may provide people with different opportunities where they can perform other skills. For instance, a person who is only offered isolated jobs in one country may find the opportunity to work in more social things elsewhere. Or for instance we may choose to start our own business and work in different, more comfortable situations. 

 

I understand your concerns about the welfare system. To me as well, as I said before, the welfare system is one of the greatest inventions for humankind. 

 

No, he doesn't want to work. That doesn't mean rejecting work. He is just trying to find a balance between health and work. His medical advisors are doing their best for this and so does Arbeitsamt I believe. I also believe that all adults have a capacity that helps them balance what they want, they don't want and what they they should do or not. I am sure you didn't go to work very happily every single day of your life, but I'm also sure that this doesn't mean you skived in your workplace on these days, ignored your duties etc. I believe you completed your duties responsibly as wants and fulfilling responsiblities do not stem from the same place in the human. All adults have this capacity. And you know what, there are also people on earth who want to work but don't seem very employable to others. Please remember that one scenario does not fit all.  

 

You stated your opinion more than once that you think we are scammers. OK. You think this. You cannot prove this unless you are in an official work environment with proof. That's I believe the job of Arbeitsamt. Arguments here do not say much after a point. At the same time, I cannot prove to you that we are not scammers. That's also impossible here. If your purpose is a mission of impossibility, do so. I cannot do anything about this. You can find people who support your opinions, and that's OK, too. 

 

But I kindly ask you to stop the very personalized attack. I shared our personal details to be able to give a clear picture of the situation, only to be able to genuinely show that we do not intend to exploit any system. Beyond this, just like I would like to carry on a conversation with you without touching the specifics of your private life, I would like you to have the same recognition for this very personal boundary. I am treating you with respect in this regard, without asking you anything personal and without commenting on you personally, and I am asking you to show the same to us.  

 

If you think he is a scammer, if you want to react to that repetitively, I cannot stop that. I am on a forum and this means hearing other people's opinions of course. Even when they are not nice. Even when I don't agree with them. 

 

But please let's not do it using health conditions as proof of argument. You think we are bad people, OK. You think we are immoral, OK. But please, I'm asking you with all my genuinity, please stop using this depression/suicide as proof of this. This is severely traumatising and painful for all people who have come so close to losing a loved one. 

 

Each time you mention this, I get very scary thoughts about death, about losing someone I love. 

 

I am asking you to please have sympathy on this part of this topic. Please give up on this "psyhiatric" thing. Feel free to say everything you like, but please not at this individual level. It seriously hurts because losing someone to suicide is always a hurtful thing. I am asking for your human sympathy on this one thing. 

 

Let's discuss learnt helplessness if you like, let's discuss how lazy people can be. Call us scammers alright. But please, don't do whatever you are doing with this one thing. I both lose the gist of the conversation because of this highly emotionally charged topic and also feel severely violated. 

 

I am writing to you with the belief that you are a good person with differing values but ultimately no intention to hurt, abuse, harass me or us. This is why I'm asking you to please stop the personal, private side of this attack. In the case that you continue this despite my request, I will have to perceive this as intentional bullying, intentional insults designed to hurt. 

 

I hope you understand. 

 

EDIT: I have read forum rules and both you and I have a duty to be excellent to each other. Rants about groups are allowed, personalized attacks are not. I am inviting you to observe this forum rule please. 

 

 

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" No, he doesn´t want to work. ", you write.

To be frank, I´m pretty tired of it, too. I wish I could just say " sod it..that´s it. "..but...no , there are mouths to feed..

 including other people´s...

--which is fine if it´s genuine and doesn´t involve freeloading and people looking around to exploit a system other people are paying into.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, zeino said:

EDIT: I have read forum rules and both you and I have a duty to be excellent to each other. Rants about groups are allowed, personalized attacks are not. I am inviting you to observe this forum rule please. 

 

 

 

Why not start with observing them yourself first.

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8 minutes ago, john g. said:

" No, he doesn´t want to work. ", you write.

To be frank, I´m pretty tired of it, too. I wish I could just say " sod it..that´s it. "..but...no , there are mouths to feed..

 including other people´s...

--which is fine if it´s genuine and doesn´t involve freeloading and people looking around to exploit a system other people are paying into.

 

 

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.

 

 

JohnG, I agree with your sentiments. Even if I didn't agree with them, I would have to respect them. How can I and why should I expect people to think differently? 

 

I'm OK with people voicing this, too. I even think, it is honest, respectable wage earners who feel strongly about this. A millionaire with less sensitivities would perhaps not care (though not all millionaires.) 

 

I'm not even saying don't call us this or that. 

 

I am just saying, can we please please stop a suicide attempt thing out of this. Is this too much to ask really? 

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23 hours ago, zeino said:

 

Yes LeonG, that was a complete misunderstanding on our part - thinking that we would be evaluated on an individual basis within the Bedorfgemeinschaft for permanent residence purposes.

Have you actually confirmed that this isn´t the case?

On another note: to me you are coming across as very sensitive, maybe too sensitive. And this is an expat forum which isn´t even representative of the level of directness you could expect from Germans. You´d need to grow a thicker skin if you want to enjoy life in Germany.

 

As far as your fiance is concerned: it sounds at least questionable whether he is acting in accordance with Hartz IV laws. He actually is obligated to accept any just and reasonable job offer. If the jobcenter finds out that he just doesn´t want to do that he will be penalised (unless he has very good reasons (e.g. medical ones)).

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6 minutes ago, zeino said:

I am just saying, can we please please stop a suicide attempt thing out of this. Is this too much to ask really? 

 

I really don't understand this. Are YOU in danger of attempting suicide because of our matter of fact responses here? 

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11 minutes ago, klubbnika said:

Why not start with observing them yourself first.

 

Is this because of our discussion from the other thread?

 

I am trying to observe forum rules to the best of my power. And in the case that I violated them, I actually apologized openly for the disturbance I may given to people and stated it wasn't intentional. 

 

I also thanked you for the time you spent and ended up with good wishes. 

 

On top of this, you decided openly that I may have a disorder. And then you also publicly mentioned that this is not my fault that I have a disorder and you yourself shouldn't blame me for this. (or something along these lines.) 

 

YOu also told another member to let go (of me or something) and to carry on the conversation. 

 

Now you are here, instead of there where I was told that tolerance for my words was zero, zilch. I politely left and here you are, still speaking to me? Why? What is your purpose? Stalk me? 

 

I have no personal problems with you. I enjoyed speaking with you. I felt it could be enlightening. I also clearly stated this to you I believe. If you feel I wronged you in some sense, tell me openly so I will apologize. I am even giving you positive reputation for stuff where you attack me if I feel the content is worthy and you are seeing this.  There isn't much more that I can do to express my goodwill. If you don't wish to make up but continue this, I am sorry but I cannot join you. 

 

I will keep on observing forum rules the way I understand them. 

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8 minutes ago, zeino said:

 

 

JohnG, I agree with your sentiments. Even if I didn't agree with them, I would have to respect them. How can I and why should I expect people to think differently? 

 

I'm OK with people voicing this, too. I even think, it is honest, respectable wage earners who feel strongly about this. A millionaire with less sensitivities would perhaps not care (though not all millionaires.) 

 

I'm not even saying don't call us this or that. 

 

I am just saying, can we please please stop a suicide attempt thing out of this. Is this too much to ask really? 

Suicide attempt? Maybe I haven´t read enough on this thread..in fact, I haven´t but erm? What???

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6 minutes ago, zeino said:

 

Is this because of our discussion from the other thread?

 

I am trying to observe forum rules to the best of my power. And in the case that I violated them, I actually apologized openly for the disturbance I may given to people and stated it wasn't intentional. 

 

I also thanked you for the time you spent and ended up with good wishes. 

 

On top of this, you decided openly that I may have a disorder. And then you also publicly mentioned that this is not my fault that I have a disorder and you yourself shouldn't blame me for this. (or something along these lines.) 

 

YOu also told another member to let go (of me or something) and to carry on the conversation. 

 

Now you are here, instead of there where I was told that tolerance for my words was zero, zilch. I politely left and here you are, still speaking to me? Why? What is your purpose? Stalk me? 

 

I have no personal problems with you. I enjoyed speaking with you. I felt it could be enlightening. I also clearly stated this to you I believe. If you feel I wronged you in some sense, tell me openly so I will apologize. I am even giving you positive reputation for stuff where you attack me if I feel the content is worthy and you are seeing this.  There isn't much more that I can do to express my goodwill. If you don't wish to make up but continue this, I am sorry but I cannot join you. 

 

I will keep on observing forum rules the way I understand them. 

Personalized attacks are not allowed on this forum.

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On 15.12.2016 14:42:50, zeino said:

 

He worked in a rental programme through Arbeitsagentur I think. He worked and actively looked for jobs in these 10 years, did not reject anything at all. He attended his appointments, interviews and he didn't do one illegal thing. he is 40. Then he became depressed and suicidal actually, and spent five weeks in an enclosed ward because of his risk of suicide. It is there his psychiatrist encouraged him to rebuild his life, aim for higher and he actually has a report from his psychatrist that he isn't advised to work in certain jobs. And the social pedagogue (if I'm using the right term) also reports that his depression is due to social circumstances. Do you think these professionals are both scammers, too? I have stated before that he has a condition that does not classify as disability but I hope he doesn't get worse. To you he is a scammer, OK. You are morally much higher than him. OK. I hope these things do not happen to you or to your beloved ones really. There are things in life beyond the scammer discourse. I have stated these in the most objective, non-personal terms and that's what matters. The rest is scandals of our life which is our business only.

 

And yes, it is only rational that if the German system builds its notion of social support on the notion of family, people who can support each other cannot ask for support from the state. They should think about this before they get married really. But you see that this is the law anyway. We cannot break this, we don't have choices. This is how it will happen. Only people who agree with this should get married, the state is very clear about what will happen. On what grounds are you suggesting that this is left to us "scammers"? Your perspective is wrong simply because we cannot choose to do or simply do the things you are suggesting. It is illegal and the state has access to what we have and we don't have. It is in the records. And I'm stating for the umpteenth time that with all our means, we together can support one person in this unit and two. And the person who needs support is the German national. My whole point is I don't want to use benefits. And he needs them. You don't decide that Bramble. The state experts do under the guidance of a medical team that I believe are not scammers. Is this really so difficult to grasp?  

 

And how can you judge people morally when there is not even a moral choice but a neautral law that binds everyone equally? In your discourse, we are not only immoral but also criminals. Presumption of innocence, please. The basis of western law. Nothing gives you the right to call people scammers because they are willing to learn their rights and wish to operate within them. What scam really? Please stand by your words and tell me what scam we are in. 

 

Why should the state care about our "love life"? What makes you think that we want the system to care about our "love life"? You and I can perhaps discuss my and my boyfriend's situation within the framework of a German national's constitutional rights and the notion of family that the German state itself protects by law. These, I suppose, entail more than our "love life." And of course the German state doesn't care about our love life because it is a democracy, thank God. It does care about the illegal and illegitimate exploitation of the sacrecy of family for other purposes as it should do.

 

 Theoretically, we can ponder about whether an "obligation to unburden the system" can exist. Can you logically have an obligation when previous to that you lose your rights anyway? So the condition of "obligation to unburden" is rendered non-existent anyway - as the system already ensures this? But we are scammers with egoistical choices and a wish that the system recognizes our "love life." 

 

As for egoistical life choices. I believe people can have egoistical choices as long as they are legal. Driving a car is perhaps one in some countries where pollution is a serious problem. We can discuss its ethics. However, this is irrelevant because the German state is advanced enough to have built its existence on a legal presence instead of people's egoistical or whatnot choices. 

 

Yes, I still wish to learn about the scam we are conducting. 

 

 

 

No Bramble I'm not meaning that I'm attempting to commit suicide because of this. I mean what's written above as a reply to you actually. 

 

I know it doesn't always sound very coherent trying to explain things, was this now a suicide risk or an attempt, you know. 

 

I don't wish to discuss details of this but it was something big enough for an enclosed ward for five weeks which is a lot. And of course, there was treatment after the enclosed ward. This you have said you believe is fake. Treatment still continues actually. but that doesn't matter. 

 

Neither do I want to discuss this. It is my partner's life we are talking about. I cannot discuss this the way you can. I hope you understand. 

 

Again, please feel free to share your opinions in general about scammers, about us as well. That can only teach me how working people in Germany think and can only be enlightening. 

 

But let's please stop this psychiatry thing Bramble. 

 

Please. 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, jeba said:

Have you actually confirmed that this isn´t the case?

On another note: to me you are coming across as very sensitive, maybe too sensitive. And this is an expat forum which isn´t even representative of the level of directness you could expect from Germans. You´d need to grow a thicker skin if you want to enjoy life in Germany.

 

As far as your fiance is concerned: it sounds at least questionable whether he is acting in accordance with Hartz IV laws. He actually is obligated to accept any just and reasonable job offer. If the jobcenter finds out that he just doesn´t want to do that he will be penalised (unless he has very good reasons (e.g. medical ones)).

 

Jeba thank you. We haven't had it confirmed, yet but I am in touch with a German immigration lawyer, just to learn everything properly but our decision now is not to live in Germany. 

 

Thank you for your advice about thick skin. I guess I must develop some. I quite like the German way of speaking TBH. Direct, clear, not beating around the bush. 

 

I am OK with being called a scammer and everything. I have been called many things before. It's OK. I have stated that it's even enlightening. And actually, people who blame us on this Hartz Vier thing are building their arguments on honest work. That can never be something bad. 

 

I only wish to keep the suicide thing out of this. Again, it causes me to lose the gist of the convo and feels to personal. That's all.  

 

 

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9 minutes ago, zeino said:

But let's please stop this psychiatry thing Bramble. 

 

You are the one who mentioned it initially, not me. My answers were not personal attacks and I never called you yourself a scammer. Only your boyfriend. If he is well enough to work elsewhere but not here, then I am in my right to be suspiscious. And then you mention suicide again in response to JohnG's post. Quite erratic. 

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13 minutes ago, PandaMunich said:

What does your mum say about this relationship?

After all, she knows you best.

 

Maybe Topf has found its Deckel?

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It's never easy to change your mind, particularly about a romance.  Let's hope all goes well.

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I hope it all goes well too, but it doesn't look good. The OP is an accomplished woman (becoming a English teacher when English is not your first language requires many years of serious dedication). Still, she's picked as her future husband a man who, going by what she describes here, is completely useless. Sorry to put it so crudely, but I only see this ending in tears.

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2 minutes ago, bramble said:

 

Maybe Topf has found its Deckel?

 

:)))))))))) 

 

Genau:)))

 

No matter what you say and what I say, neither of us can ever deny the fact that the topf always finds the duckel:))))) That's what psychology says:)))) It doesn't mean a 100% match though. Yeah, whatever. Sure we are the Topf and Deckel:))) 

 

I am not insulted by this, I love it. (Also like the brand) 

 

We have exactly, exactly the same idiom in Turkish etymologically dating it back to an old Iraqi folk tale. Do you know the source of where your usage comes from? 

 

Anyway, this is a finance forum, if you like we can move my personal life and mother and the dynamics of attraction with my BF to another thread:))) 

 

About my mother: I would say, she is Black und Decker:)))) KR504 Cresk:))) I will leave the rest to you guys:))

 

P.S. Bramble I know you didn't start it. I know you can have your suspicions. I just wished to state my personal boundary as you cannot read my mind and I know your intention is to comment about honest work life rather than people's private lives. I just mentioned it again to JohnG because he asked. Maybe you missed a post. I want to emphasize yet again. Whatever our disagreements, I respect what you say about work. I am the daughter of a woman who has worked all her life. I can only respect this. 

 

 

 

 

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@zeinoSorry if I'm rubbing salt in the wound again, but I'm wondering - if your boyfriend is too sick to work (mentally or physically or both) and his doctors think so too, as you say - why he hasn't applied for disability pension. I know a 46 year old woman in my neighbourhood who has been getting this pension for years because she suffers from severe vertigo and depression. She also tried suicide and ended up in a mental hospital for a while. She takes antidepressants since then, wants to get off them now, but hasn't got the neccessary willpower. 

 

Website of the Deutsche Rentenversicherung: Altersrente für schwerbehinderte Menschen

 

German Wikipedia: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerbehindertenrecht_(Deutschland)

 

English Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disability_pension

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2 hours ago, bramble said:

She takes antidepressants since then, wants to get off them now, but hasn't got the neccessary willpower. 

 

She should be careful with that.  I had a classmate at university who was depressed and on medication and she'd regularly think she was cured and go off them and then crash and burn.

 

These are also not meds that you can just quit, cold turkey either.  She'd have to wean herself off them slowly and she should discuss it with her doctor first.

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