breakfast in the hotel invoice for business trip

[theGman 3,520]

15 hours ago, franklan said:

Impossible. Hotel room itself is 7% MwSt. and breakfast is 19% MwSt., so it cannot be combined in one price, so that the actual costs are hidden. That's the trick with the "business package", it includes - among the breakfast - other service (like, WLAN, the parking lot or whatever) that are 19%, so the real breakfast price is hidden behind other 19% items... As I said you cannot hide it in a "room + breakfast" combo, as this would be mixing 7% and 19% items.

 

I get what you are saying, but in a practical sense, I have never actually seen this. The bill just says e.g. "3 Nights incl. breakfast = €XX". But that is just me, and I don't pay close attention to it. And admittedly I don't travel within Germany much so my experience is limited, but I've still never had it come up...and I have never booked a "business package".

 

In any case the guy is talking about a trip to Spain...is it the same situation there (different VAT rates)?

[Krieg 15,107]

10 hours ago, LukeSkywalker said:

I put these in our intranet for travel  expense claims, so that's not difficult, but do you have a link concerning tax declaration? Is it a new guideline?

 

All the money you receive as Pauschale for food expenses in business trips will show up as one entry in your yearly income report which is the basis for your tax declaration.   This will show up as additional income, so if you do not report it in your tax declaration then my guess is that you will be paying taxes for that money.   However reporting it is pretty straight forward, you choose your destination and the dates of the trip and your (at least mine does it) tax software will take the Pauschale for that country and reduce it from your income.   In most cases what you declare does not exactly match what it is in your income report because of the different calculation your company does for breakfast and the rules about the first and last day of your trip (full payment vs partial payment).

 

IIRC there were changes in 2013/2014 about this. 

[norcal_sf 124]

Slightly off-topic, but still related.  I've seen a couple of mentions here if you have breakfast included, 20% of the 12Euro gets removed from what you receive.  Is this percent that is taken off the daily rate standard or set by some authority?  As I was filling out an expense report and wrote that breakfast can be been paid by someone not by me, 4.80 gets removed from the measly 12Euro amount.  As 4.80 is 20% of the full daily rate of 24, I think the software has a bug.  These deductions always seem to take a percentage of the full 24 hour rate and does not take into account trips where I only spend one night away from home, so don't get that much better "gone the whole day allowance".  So my question is, are the percents taken off the rates when a meal included set by the Finazamt?  And if so, it should be taking into account the rate for the day, not just doing it off of the full 24 hour amount, as if you were there 3+ days, correct?

Thank you for any clarification.

 

[toBnruG 1,173]

... trying to resist the temptation to write a reply saying that the 2.40€ this software bug is costing you could easily be recouped by sitting outside your local supermarket for an hour with a paper cup on the pavement in front of you... no, I can't resist

[PandaMunich 16,910]

You got a breakfast --> 4.80€ get deducted, no bug there.

 

The only exception would be if the hotel invoice were in your employer's name, then your employer could instead only deduct the Sachbezugswert of 1.67€ (in 2016, it's 1/30 of the monthly value 50€ set down in §2 Absatz 1 Nr. 1 SvEV).

 

Here's an article on this topic (with the old value for the Sachbezugswert): http://www.spesen-ratgeber.de/reisekosten-fruehstueck/

[norcal_sf 124]

Okay, so why when I get breakfast and lunch provided, but not dinner does the reimbursable amount go to zero for the day?

[LukeSkywalker 7,662]

No, it doesn't. Breakfast means a 20% deduction and lunch another 40%.  Dinner costs you a 40% deduction on your daily allowance.

 

€24 daily allowance basically means you will add some of your own money to cover the meals unless you eat out in McDonald's all the time :).

[toBnruG 1,173]

Luke, I think he's saying that he gets charged 20% of the 24 hour rate for breakfast plus 40% of the 24 hours rate for lunch, but since he only gets assigned the 12 hour rate these deductions take him down to zero.

I must say, that in my previous company the deductions never reduced my allowance to zero, so this does seem strange.

[PandaMunich 16,910]

1 hour ago, norcal_sf said:

Okay, so why when I get breakfast and lunch provided, but not dinner does the reimbursable amount go to zero for the day?

 

Yes, why shouldn't it?

 

This is the Verpflegungsmehraufwand after all, it's only supposed to cover the extra cost that you incur because you're travelling and don't know the cheapest places to buy a sandwich/eat in this other city. It's not supposed to cover the whole meal cost.

 

You got breakfast and lunch provided:

1. no extra cost incurred by you, and
2. according to the law, your employer should make you pay Lohnsteuer on the value of these meals (= Sachbezugswerte), i.e. you should have to tax an extra 4.77€ (= 1.67€ for breakfast + + 3.10€ lunch).

 

You're not supposed to make a profit on it.

[Krieg 15,107]

At what time your trip starts and ends plays as well a role. This is what decides if you have the right to claim breakfast and lunch on the first day and if you have the right to claim lunch on the last day.

[LukeSkywalker 7,662]

19 hours ago, Krieg said:

At what time your trip starts and ends plays as well a role. 

Exactly, in my example I assume that @norcal_sf is entitled to the full daily allowance of €24. If I'm on a training and have breakfast in the hotel and lunch is provided by the supplier, then I have €9,60 (40% from €24) left for dinner which is not provided. 

 

Example, next Monday morning from 8 am I go on a business trip until Thursday 10 pm. I will receive a total allowance of €60: 12 for Monday, 24 for Tuesday, 24 for Wednesday and 12 for Thursday. No meals are provided.

[scook17 292]

>>€24 daily allowance basically means you will add some of your own money to cover the meals unless you eat out in McDonald's all the time :).
At 24 Euros, for breakfast, lunch and dinner, even mac donalds won't save you!

The amounts for meals are completely out of date for today's costs.

[Krieg 15,107]

You are not supposed to eat with the 28 EUR. It is a compensation for the EXTRA cost for having to eat out in an area you might not be familiar with. I agree the amounts are a bit low for nowadays though.

[fraufruit 42,674]

What are the amounts now? This thread is from 2016.

[Krieg 15,107]

28 EUR

and 14 EUR for 8 to 24 hours if you do not exceed 24 hours

[Fietsrad 432]

Fortunately food stores such as Rewe City are ubiquitous now, €28 gets a lot of food there, it would be easy to conjure up a Main-Meal-Müsli with extras for less than half of that.