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The Orlando Massacre

270 posts in this topic

57 minutes ago, klubbnika said:

Can you elaborate this please? If someone is determied to get a gun, there always be a black market for that. The terrorists in France even ordered it online, if I remember correctly.

I mean ease of access. Sure, a large terrorist network can get guns in  Europe, but a desperate lonely madman, no way. And even terrorists do not get that easy: Bavarian police stopped a Kosovo guy (=former warzone) who supplied machine guns to Paris attackers, that was a couple of days before attacks. That is an indication of the fact that it was not all easy for them to get guns.

 

Also, there were a couple of madman gun shooting happened in Germany, all from 100% legal guns (got via shotting club or hunting license).

 

That, of course, doesn't mean that banning hunting will stop these problems but this is how a lot of people in Germany think after each such attack.

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1 hour ago, bramble said:

 

I wouldn't be surprised if it is discovered he spent some time in Saudi Arabia, like some others of his ilk.

 

You are right...shared link with the San Bernardino terrorists, both traveling to Saudi Arabia and presumed radicalization and or logistical support they received there.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/ex-wife-of-suspected-orlando-shooter-he-beat-me/2016/06/12/8a1963b4-30b8-11e6-8ff7-7b6c1998b7a0_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-banner-main_flashoot-1237pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

Quote

After the couple split, a friend of Mateen’s said the young man became steadily more religious. The friend, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said Mateen several years ago went on the pilgrimage to Mecca in Saudi Arabia known as the umrah.

 

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4 hours ago, AlexTr said:

It doesn't matter whose imaginary friend in the sky is leading the pack. LGBT people are under attack from religious fundamentalists of all stripes. Lest we forget. I was at that bar that night. I left a few minutes earlier. 

 

Shit. :( 

 

And then this:

" The seriously injured lesbian, Memrie Wells-Cresswell, was there that night to celebrate a friend’s birthday. Wells-Cresswell was not “out” at her job, so when then Mayor Bill Campbell mentioned her name to the media during a news conference, she was outed and soon after fired from her job. "

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@Erdmann

 

well, that didn't take long, did it?

 

Trump: "I said this was going to happen – and it is only going to get worse. I am trying to save lives and prevent the next terrorist attack. We can’t afford to be politically correct anymore."

 

Trump

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1 hour ago, klubbnika said:

Can you elaborate this please? If someone is determied to get a gun, there always be a black market for that. The terrorists in France even ordered it online, if I remember correctly.

Not really, they had to smuggle them in. And a connected guy was arrested in Germany, supposedly transporting explosives to to France.

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Looking at this arguement from the otherside...

 

How many innocent people have been killed by the US army and their allies in the war against Radical extreme muslimists?

 

2 wrongs do not make it right....

 

Take the Gun from a sick man... and you are still left with a Sick man!

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6 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

I hate that sentence, defeats the purpose of a civilized discussion.

Well, in this case the discussion was leaning into the "non-civilized" direction of personal attacks.

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6 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Not really, they had to smuggle them in. And a connected guy was arrested in Germany, supposedly transporting explosives to to France.

And? They still got the guns and were able to kill people.

 

Interesting though that noone was complaining about the lame European gun laws in that case but as soon as it happened in the US then the gun laws were to blame. It's not that simple.

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8 hours ago, yourkeau said:

I mean ease of access. Sure, a large terrorist network can get guns in  Europe, but a desperate lonely madman, no way. And even terrorists do not get that easy: Bavarian police stopped a Kosovo guy (=former warzone) who supplied machine guns to Paris attackers, that was a couple of days before attacks. That is an indication of the fact that it was not all easy for them to get guns.

 

Also, there were a couple of madman gun shooting happened in Germany, all from 100% legal guns (got via shotting club or hunting license).

 

That, of course, doesn't mean that banning hunting will stop these problems but this is how a lot of people in Germany think after each such attack.

 

Well, a desperate lonely madMAN in Sweden was able to get a gun and kill a premiere-minister in 1986, and the gun laws in Sweden were pretty tight.

 

Also, "desperate lonely madman"  is not a permanent state. There are very few people who are born to such. Most of them become that. So the best way to prevent things like that from happening is to prevent people to become madmen. And for that there can be several approaches, depending on the context.

 

Yes, in my opinion, banning the hunting is the way to go, both when it comes to the welfare of animals and the gun control. Hunting for fun is cruel!

 

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13 hours ago, hooperski said:

 

8 hours ago, Oblomov said:

@Erdmann

 

well, that didn't take long, did it?

 

You mean for the all the details to sprout out? Then of course, it didn't take much time. Allegiance to IS, motivation - Islam. Those details are out.

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So this just popped up on Twitter. And apparently he called Taliban, "his Brothers" on the show. I can't find the link yet.

 

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41 minutes ago, Erdmann said:

So this just popped up on Twitter. And apparently he called Taliban, "his Brothers" on the show. I can't find the link yet.

 

Here you go...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3637968/Father-America-s-deadly-mass-shooter-wanted-Afghan-president-job-TV-showed-support-Taliban.html

 

Quote

And in another, he tells the camera: 'Our brothers in Waziristan, our warrior brothers in [the] Taliban movement and national Afghan Taliban are rising up.

'Inshallah the Durand Line issue will be solved soon', according to a translation by The Washington Post.

He is also filmed expressing gratitude toward the Afghan Taliban, 

 

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There are big questions. After being interviewed 3 times by the FBI at various points for having ties to another American jihadi suicide bomber, an islamic hate preacher as well as his fathers public statements of support for the Taliban...

1. why was the father/son not arrested as terrorist sympathizers

2. why he was able to just walk into a shop and buy a semi-auto assault rifle.

3. why the family was not placed under survelliance

hindsight is 20/20 but what a spectacular failure, this guy really fit the profile and so many indicators along the way especially his travel to saudia arabia which should have been a big red flag by itself.

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mybe a compromise would be to give only legal access to bolt action rifles  shotguns  and revolvers for hunting sporting and self defence and ban all other forms of arms for normal use? So the amis could still maintain their right to own firearmes but take away the possibillity of manslaughters like this.

(because if you have to reload a revolver  after six shots the chance is not bad to use this break to disarm someone even if he is using a speed loader)

All other armes have to be declared illegal and the goverment have to buy them back, drying slowly out the supply and easy access  of those over the time.

(if they can spend 700 billions on a defence budged ..this would be peanuts)

I mean, if you have to take time in prison for the possesion of 5 g of dope,which is redicules,  why not for the then illegal possesion after a certain deadline,  of a then illegal firearm? Fixed tariff: 5 years, no arguing, no reasons, no excuses, no discount... and burning the house down..(ups wrong place thats Israel ...;))

 

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15 minutes ago, sr5dnptylno said:

There are big questions. After being interviewed 3 times by the FBI at various points for having ties to another American jihadi suicide bomber, an islamic hate preacher as well as his fathers public statements of support for the Taliban...

1. why was the father/son not arrested as terrorist sympathizers

2. why he was able to just walk into a shop and buy a semi-auto assault rifle.

3. why the family was not placed under survelliance

hindsight is 20/20 but what a spectacular failure, this gut really fit the profile and so many indicators along the way especially his travel to saudia arabia which should have been a big red flag by itself.

 

These answers are quite easy to answer. 

 

1.  At least the son had been under watch in 2013 and 2014 but the FBI found "nothing" to keep his case open, which leads to  EDIT:  I'm not sure how you could arrest someone for being sympathizers of something in the USA.  As far as I know, there's no law against it.  This would get into the realm of someone being the "thought police" and it in of itself a whole viper nest. 

2.  He wasn't on any watch list for suspected activity, so the murderer had full and open access to any guns he could under Florida state law

3.  This is the same question as 1, no?

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/in-wake-of-orlando-shooting-obama-others-call-for-stricter-gun-laws-1465765325

 

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-omar-mateen-was-taken-off-a-terrorist-1465772737-htmlstory.html

 

 

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1 hour ago, sr5dnptylno said:

There are big questions. After being interviewed 3 times by the FBI at various points for having ties to another American jihadi suicide bomber, an islamic hate preacher as well as his fathers public statements of support for the Taliban...

1. why was the father/son not arrested as terrorist sympathizers

2. why he was able to just walk into a shop and buy a semi-auto assault rifle.

3. why the family was not placed under survelliance

hindsight is 20/20 but what a spectacular failure, this gut really fit the profile and so many indicators along the way especially his travel to saudia arabia which should have been a big red flag by itself.

 

1. Because of the 1st Amendment

2. Because of the 2nd Amendment

3. Because of the 4th Amendment

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2 hours ago, slycookies said:

 As far as I know, there's no law against it.  This would get into the realm of someone being the "thought police" and it in of itself a whole viper nest.

 

 

Sure there are, provisions of the Patriot Act, Smith Act and certainly more gaining dust but technically still on the books and in effect.

It is a matter of interpretation , I am not an expert in constitutional law but as I remember it our constitution and laws were designed by our founding fathers to be malleable and flexible enough to meet current and future threats to the U.S. without impinging upon our basic rights.

 

I don't think we are dealing here with the danger of "Thought Police", the son was already under investigation and I'm sure others independently reported their suspicious activities and seditious statements to the authorities. It was reported that the shooter was talking about killing all the time and the father hosted a youtube channel in which he, expressed gratitude to his  Taliban brothers and warns the U.S. not to support Pakistan.

 

Quote

Posts include topics such as 'Rise Afghan people against Pakistan' and 'Intelligent service and Military of Pakistan real Enemy of the USA (sic)'.

In one video the elder Mateen holds up a sign that reads: 'ISI Pakistan and Military is Destroying 14 years of US work in Afghanistan to cut AID to killers'.

  3533740A00000578-3637968-image-a-103_146

 

 

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