Brussels Terror Attacks: Islamist Jihadist Terrorists Strike Again

502 posts in this topic

12 minutes ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

There are just so many unchecked assertions here, it's hard to know where to begin, and exhausting to check every single one of them.

 

 

Wikipedia will tell you that at last count 28% are black, but not tell you how many of them are actually "African-American" in the sense that they have ancestors of many generations in the USA.  (hint: not all of them)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States

 

 

With refugee status, we are talking about recent communities (starting from the 90s, and some even more recent).  No one claimed that any of the refugees  (aka people who are more likely than otherwise to start with few resources) would get rich immediately.

 

 

45% of immigrant Muslims in the USA have 50K$+ incomes, which is well higher than the US average.  There's nothing specially enterprising about Middle Eastern Muslims---many of successful ones in the USA are *drum roll* Pakistanis.

 

 

My open borders idea is not a "demand", dude -- a "demand" would require that there be some possibility of implementation, which there isn't.  I merely point out some of the bad incentives and moral dilemmas created by a violent border enforcement regime and suggest that many of them are actually avoidable.

According to this source (American Muslim demographics) over a decade ago 67% of Muslims in the US had at least a bachelor's degree (hence my remark about controlling for educational levels), which is way above the US average. This confirms my oft-stated policy prefence for letting highly skilled people immigrate to Western societies.

 

Also, I don't see how you missed this from the Wiki source you cited: "Native-born American Muslims are mainly African Americans who make up about a quarter of the total Muslim population".

 

If you want to argue semantics over whether your open borders miasma is a demand or merely a fantasy, go ahead, but please don't make us laugh with the blatantly false claim of "violent border enforcement".

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11 minutes ago, Conquistador said:

Let me give you one situation I've encountered, and maybe you can suggest a way to ameliorate it. A decade ago, I was a student at a university in the US that had a very large number of Muslims. One day I happened to need a book in a part of the main campus library which had been commandered by male Muslims as a prayer area (they had all sorts of prayer rugs on the floor and would pray there after washing their feet in the adjacent bathroom). Three of their enforcers cornered me and told me that I had to leave because they were about to pray (it was time for the third prayer of the day). I made it clear to them that I would file a complaint against them for harassment with the campus police if they did not leave me alone. They sort of backed down, but hovered impatiently nearby as I browsed the stacks and they watched to ensure that I would leave.

 

American university campuses with a lot of Muslims often have a prayer area or offer a room reservation system for community groups to set up meetings for whatever purpose, as they do for other religious groups and services.  This was probably the case at your university. If so, and there is enough space for them to pray, then of course the university administration should prevent their commandeering of a public area unintended for the purpose of private meetings that way.  I agree with your annoyance at the situation.

 

11 minutes ago, Conquistador said:

 

 

In some cases, it won't be a problem to accomomodate some  Muslim religious or cultural practices, but that isn't the case for all of them (and, yes, gender separation is among the most problematic). To give one example of the difficulty in accomodating some practices, there are currently some cases of Muslim factory workers in the US insisting that they be given breaks to pray during their shifts despite the disruption it causes.

 

 

 

I heard about that case and wondered if there weren't other things also going on in terms of worker/employee relations, but if prayer obligations actually cause a disruption of production in a manner that cannot be ameliorated by a scheduling system, then I agree that it is the workers who must show flexibility there or quit their jobs.   However, if there is a way to schedule breaks so that production is not disrupted, hopefully they can come to some accommodation on it.

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Part of the problem is the amount of time necessary to perform ablution, walk to the prayer area, pray, and walk back. That's going to take longer than the standard 15 minutes for a break.

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3 minutes ago, Conquistador said:

According to this source (American Muslim demographics) over a decade ago 67% of Muslims in the US had at least a bachelor's degree (hence my remark about controlling for educational levels), which is way above the US average. This confirms my oft-stated policy prefence for letting highly skilled people immigrate to Western societies.

 

But, the USA has an advantage most of the world doesn't: an English-speaking (ie, world-commerce-ese-speaking) society and two vast oceans.  And yet still, it has millions of illegal Hispanic immigrants, many of whom don't speak English and don't assimilate (I've seen it! Personal experience!).  You get the things you get, it's a matter of choices about what you do afterwards.  And I contend that even under highly adverse immigration scenarios, positive outcomes are still achievable with the right policies.

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I fail to see how a baker can be taken to court for refusing to make a cake for a gay couple, but female Muslim hairdresser can refuse to cut men's hair.

That is unfair and is basically treating the baker differently. 

 

If your religion stops you doing a major part of the job, then it is not the job for you.

 

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

I'll interrupt this conversation to say that Himself just heard on TV that ISIS is now claiming responsibility for whatever it was we were talking about.

 

It's like the least surprising thing on earth, alas.  It was likely flowcharted months in advance. Arrest->attack.

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2 minutes ago, Conquistador said:

Part of the problem is the amount of time necessary to perform ablution, walk to the prayer area, pray, and walk back. That's going to take longer than the standard 15 minutes for a break.

 

Like I said if there's really no way, there's no way. 

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1 minute ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

But, the USA has an advantage most of the world doesn't: an English-speaking (ie, world-commerce-ese-speaking) society and two vast oceans.  And yet still, it has millions of illegal Hispanic immigrants, many of whom don't speak English and don't assimilate (I've seen it! Personal experience!).  You get the things you get, it's a matter of choices about what you do afterwards.  And I contend that even under highly adverse immigration scenarios, positive outcomes are still achievable with the right policies.

If we go down that route then few or no benefits/health care for them.

 

Hardly seems fair mind..

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1 minute ago, cb6dba said:

I fail to see how a baker can be taken to court for refusing to make a cake for a gay couple, but female Muslim hairdresser can refuse to cut men's hair.

That is unfair and is basically treating the baker differently. 

 

I generally use the principle of personal space here.  Being a haircutter involves being in someone else's personal space, even if it's only the top of their head, and all kinds of issues about personal space and physical comfort come into the picture.  Yes, it's a complicated question, and I see the argument for the opposite viewpoint also.  But the most social good is permitted by giving a woman an opportunity to better her lot without triggering something that might be quite visceral inside her. She may change her mind later on.

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3 minutes ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

I generally use the principle of personal space here.  Being a haircutter involves being in someone else's personal space, even if it's only the top of their head, and all kinds of issues about personal space and physical comfort come into the picture.  Yes, it's a complicated question, and I see the argument for the opposite viewpoint also.  But the most social good is permitted by giving a woman an opportunity to better her lot without triggering something that might be quite visceral inside her. She may change her mind later on.

This is however treating her differently based on her status.

To go this way you take away one person's right to do business with how they want but grant the other the option to do so.

 

Let's flip:

How would you feel if the woman was made to cut men's hair but the baker could refuse to make that cake?

 

To me the cutting and cake making are being refused to a group based on religious grounds . both are equally invalid.

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, gemini said:

I have already stated this is a previous post E.I...but there is a HUGE difference to me between church bells...that are a melodical sound (and yes I know there is a Christian connotation even with that sound though it is mostly used to denote the time at this point) versus actual "call" to "God".  Which is unaccepible to me under the separation of Church and State.  

 

I live opposite a Catholic church.  It has a clock tower that chimes on the quarter (but only on the hour from 10 pm to 6 pm thank God (?).  

 

But this is separate from the church bells are rung also 3 times a day, calling the faithful to recite the Angelus (7 am  Midday, and 7 pm), which is similar idea to the Jewish and Islamic traditions.   Anglicans and Lutherans do this too.  So we get a version of the following 3 times a day, which some of our visitors have not always appreciated.  I have also lived near mosques and found the call to prayer melodious the only problem being when there is too much amplification.  Not quite sure what this has to do with separation of Church and state, the state is not ringing the bells.... 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDXWccFolv

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17 minutes ago, airwave said:

@rohit_2543, I did not say any of that.

Would you mind fixing your message/quote?

 

Thanks!

Sorry, I was replying to @Alcala. The quote is broken specially when it is nested. Tried but could not edit. Genuinely sorry.

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11 minutes ago, cb6dba said:

This is however treating her differently based on her status.

 

But there are reasons not always to treat people uniformly, as abstractions, but instead to consider what social good would be done by what form of treatment.

 

11 minutes ago, cb6dba said:

To go this way you take away one person's right to do business with how they want but grant the other the option to do so.

 

Let's flip:

How would you feel if the woman was made to cut men's hair but the baker could refuse to make that cake?

 

To me the cutting and cake making are being refused to a group based on religious grounds . both are equally invalid.

 

Well in the first case, if the scenario were flipped, a woman may very well give up her fledgeling attempt at financial independence, and a baker would be permitted to assert his ability to exclude gays, especially if he were the only baker in town.  You can't really do this exercise separately from their social positions.  I do agree that it's very difficult to draw these lines, because some bad outcome is likely to happen to matter how you draw them. 

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As far as i am concerned the heads of state all around the world have fucked about for 5 years.Only one who had any balls was Putin.He stood up and took the fight to them.Frau Ferkel let em all in.Now she goes on T.V. saying her thoughts are with the victims and their families.Fucking hypocrite she is.Its time to stop fucking about and even if they just may have a connection to ISIS then ship them out.All this pussy footing around about being civilised and finding a way out.

FUCK THAT IS THIS THE BEHAVIOUR OF CIVILISED PEOPLE I THINK SO NOT.Time to get hard and see what the politicians do now.Time for action and not gabbing on all the time.

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You added some things in a little bit of staircase wit, it seems:

 

33 minutes ago, Conquistador said:

Also, I don't see how you missed this from the Wiki source you cited: "Native-born American Muslims are mainly African Americans who make up about a quarter of the total Muslim population".

 

That's still under the numbers you quoted, but fair enough. 

 

33 minutes ago, Conquistador said:

If you want to argue semantics over whether your open borders miasma is a demand or merely a fantasy, go ahead, but please don't make us laugh with the blatantly false claim of "violent border enforcement".

 

Border enforcement is violent by definition -- see how they returned the Idomeni refugees who tried to find an alternative way to enter Macedonia.  It's simply a statement of fact.  Now we are seeing the unschöne Bilder.

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Russia Today's Live coverage on Youtube opened their chat function. Bunch of Middle Easterners were actually cheering and celebrating this massacre.

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55 minutes ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

But, the USA has an advantage most of the world doesn't: an English-speaking (ie, world-commerce-ese-speaking) society and two vast oceans.  And yet still, it has millions of illegal Hispanic immigrants, many of whom don't speak English and don't assimilate (I've seen it! Personal experience!).  You get the things you get, it's a matter of choices about what you do afterwards.  And I contend that even under highly adverse immigration scenarios, positive outcomes are still achievable with the right policies.

As you are well aware, I am opposed to illegal entry or visa overstays, regardless of who is doing it. Incidentally, peoplre from Middle Eastern countries and even China have been known to cross the Mexico-US border illegally, as well as overstay visas.

 

Again, you have to control for education. It's the poorly educated people, mostly in the US illegally, who don't speak English. In fact, it's not that unusual to find US-born Hispanics who don't speak Spanish well, and, Hispanic cultures are not as distant to US "Anglo" or African-American cultures as Middle Eastern ones are to European ones. Furthermore, despite sometimes having deficient English skills, foreign-born Hispanics have much lower unemployment rates than immigrants from EMEA do in Germany (they also have lower unemployment rates than US-born Hispanics). Nevertheless, the same argument I made earlier applies- is it worth the trouble of spending untold amounts of money to try to bring huge numbers of poorly educated people up to speed in an economy that increasingly needs highly skilled people? Wouldn't it make more sense to limit these yeoman efforts primarily to your native-born unskilled and allow highly skilled people to immigrate to fill existing needs in the labor force?  

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2 hours ago, yourkeau said:

Yep, but without migrants own lower class workers would be with the same children with the same easy target for terror propaganda.

 

Let's look at German history:

1980: Explosion at Oktoberfest, Munich, 200 dead. Committed by: a far right/neonazi German(s, it's still not clear if there was more than one murderer) from Wehrsportgruppe Hoffmann.

1985: Explosion at Frankfurt airport, 40 dead. Committed by: Palestinians.
 

Have I forgotten anything? Any conclusions?

 

yourkeau: I don't know where you got the numbers from.

wikipedia says 13 were killed at the Oktoberfest and 3 at the Frankfurt airport

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7 minutes ago, Conquistador said:

Nevertheless, the same argument I made earlier applies- is it worth the trouble of spending untold amounts of money to try to bring huge numbers of poorly educated people up to speed in an economy that increasingly needs highly skilled people? Wouldn't it make more sense to limit these yeoman efforts primarily to your native-born unskilled and allow highly skilled people to immigrate to fill existing needs in the labor force?  

 

But the keyword here is "bring".  If it were a matter of "bringing", I might think you had a stronger case.  But it's actually a matter of "prevent from coming".  It is, I'm afraid, the "prevent" part that's the sticking point for me.

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