Brussels Terror Attacks: Islamist Jihadist Terrorists Strike Again

502 posts in this topic

@Conquistador, you've basically repeated your litany/platform, with very little difference from any other iteration, more or less ignoring what I said.   No, that some people can't cross is not "the human cost to border enforcement", the human cost to border enforcement is, for example, people dying on the US/Mexico border, among other atrocious situations.  (Then there are other costs, but those weren't the ones I was referring to.)  I mean, I can't believe you're so misinformed as not to know that people die trying to cross borders, wherever those borders are; it sems there's hardly an enforced border that hasn't been inaugurated in blood somehow.  Who you blame is generally a matter of ideology, but I prefer to blame the most obvious and proximate cause: the border. 

 

The rest I've dealt with extensively on other threads, and I'm therefore not going to repeat myself -- I mean, I don't know why you felt the need to repeat yourself in such detail.  Just like, you endlessly repeat that some of the refugees are "my coreligionists", as though you're trying to imply something with this -- but on the other thread, I conveniently become the naive Western leftist, when it suits you.  That's how I know you're not an intellectually honest interlocutor, but despite the disingenuousness, you're at least useful as an argument testing platform. 

 

You can either react to human migration by listing the known problems and then saying, "Oh well I guess we have to curtail human freedom of movement and so on".  Or you can choose to try to avoid curtailing the natural right of movement and find alternative measures to accomplish similar aims.  The latter is the harder path, at least intellectually, but it has the merit of requiring less barbed wire.

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Au contraire, Impulse, as always I have responded to your claptrap and obfuscations. No one has to be disingenuous about what you post because you hang yourself with your bizarre ideas and incoherent analysis.

 

There were 417 known deaths as a result of illegal border crossings from Mexico into the US in 2009 (there were 1.4 million vehicular deaths globally in 2013, yet no one is talking about ending licensing for autos as a solution). No one is forced to cross the US/Mexico border illegally. Water is placed strategically for those who do. People that do not want to die crossing a border illegally should not do so, and that's within their own power. That's no reason to have an open borders policy with its enormous attendant effects including:

 

No border control means terrorists and criminals have free reign

 

Completely open borders are not natural

 

With regards to your open borders mania, it's more likely that you want to see Europe swamped by your co-religionists, but, yes it's possible that you're clueless yourself, but either way, regardless of your intent, the consequences are the same.

 

As to what was posted on the other thread, well, it was satirical:

 

"If you are crazy enough to think that Middle Easterners' loyalties are not to their tribe or family, perhaps you need to spend time in the region. I advise going as Muslim Brother Eupathic Impulse, not as cluess Western Leftist Eupathic Impulse."

 

You self-identify as both a Muslim and a Western leftist. Which identity do you think most Middle Eastern Muslims are going to feel more comfortable with?

 

Your identity as a Muslim is of overriding importance, not how closely you adhere to Islamic religious practices (I'd actually respect someone who has the discipline to pray five times a day on schedule and observe a halal diet), but of course there may be overlap in terms of how you demand others interact with/accomodate that identity (e.g., you want burqas accomodated).

 

 

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Conquistador said:

 

With regards to your open borders mania, it's more likely that you want to see Europe swamped by your co-religionists, but, yes it's possible that you're clueless yourself, but either way, regardless of your intent, the consequences are the same.

 

Yes, I know, you're a conspiracy theorist.  I'm personally would be very happy for the middle eastern wars to be over, which would end the bulk of the pressure for migration (since the economic damage from it actually spreads beyond the zone itself), but I don't expect you to believe me, because I don't expect you to credit me with basic human feelings. Since, rather than believe I have a different analysis of the situation, you believe that I would deliberately want to exploit vast human suffering that way.  Because I told you, one day long ago, a little bit about my parents.

 

21 minutes ago, Conquistador said:

 

Your identity as a Muslim is of overriding importance, not how closely you adhere to Islamic religious practices (I'd actually respect someone who has the discipline to pray five times a day on schedule and observe a halal diet),

 

Of course you would.  You "respect" anyone who falls into your little categorical boxes that make you feel comfortable you know everything about them. 

 

21 minutes ago, Conquistador said:

 

but of course there may be overlap in terms of how you demand others interact with/accomodate that identity (e.g., you want burqas accomodated).

 

 

I merely observe --- as a number of commentators have --- that the French burqa ban hasn't actually worked, but instead quite literally did the opposite.  If you want to reduce the rate of burqa-wearing in the long run, you need to co-opt the burqa wearers, not turn them into political martyrs.  Somehow, this rather banal observation of the actual result of the burqa ban is turned into some deep comment on my supposedly identity-conflicted psyche.  By a stereotypical stereotype-addict.

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Regardless of your motivation for demanding open borders, the consequences are the same, and, yes, there are plenty of Western leftists dumb enough to think that bringing as many Muslims as possible to the West would put permanently the leftists in the driver's seat (they concurrently seem to think that Muslims will be moderated merely by being in Europe and being brought into the social system- sound familiar?)

 

I respect disciplined behavior, and someone who prays regularly and eats halal generally isn't harming someone by doing so. I don't think that someone is a bad Muslim if they cannot or do not want to do it.

 

Being nice to extremists that do not respect you is not going to moderate their behavior. If it weren't the burqa, the extremists would go after another symbol to resist the dhimmis (possibly demanding gender separation in schools) because they do not respect non-Muslims (and, for that matter, Muslims they deem too moderate). Tolerating the burqa, which violates local custom and values, would send a negative message.

 

The conspiracy theorist rubbish has been debunked so many times (and is so obviously nonsense) that the fact you keep repeating it shows just how deluded you are.

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3 minutes ago, Conquistador said:

Regardless of your motivation for demanding open borders, the consequences are the same, and, yes, there are plenty of Western leftists dumb enough to think that bringing as many Muslims as possible to the West would put permanently the leftists in the driver's seat (they concurrently seem to think that Muslims will be moderated merely by being in Europe and being brought into the social system- sound familiar?)

 

The open borders idea is extremely unlikely to be implemented in the foreseeable future, so you may breathe a sigh of relief.  It's only relevant to the discussion in two ways:

 

1. the current contretemps as well as technological developments and political developments the world over provide increasing evidence that border enforcement doesn't have as many positive effects as people think it does, while being increasingly difficult to unify with a robust commitment to human rights.  The contradictions are only going to get worse. You may disagree with this---obviously, you do disagree---but this is an empirical question that requires discussion of current research and analysis on the matter.

 

2. It's a thought-experiment or a framework that allows us to rethink aspects of social policy, welfare, etc, that, even if open borders as such is never implemented, we can still better reconcile increases in human freedom with the need for collective responses to social problems.

 

That's what the whole open borders thing is for.  I think it could be a better world if the world were to work together for it, but I never made it a central "demand."

 

As for immigrant vote banking, in my experience, immigrant communities, including Muslim communities, regress roughly to the distribution of the rest of the population after a generation or two.  That's if there aren't particular parties that target them as an election issue.  But even the FN in France gets French Muslim votes.

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So sad: a few misled youths are seduced into blowing themselves into pieces taking many others with them, and here's conquistador (the name speaks volumes of religionism!) trying to make this into a religious war.

Just theoretically: if it had not been offspring of Arab immigrants but say some mid-western rednecks who had done that (think of the Oklahoma City blast), would you be talking religion here?

 

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1 hour ago, ceogero said:

So sad: a few misled youths are seduced into blowing themselves 

 

Just theoretically: if it had not been offspring of Arab immigrants but say some mid-western rednecks who had done that (think of the Oklahoma City blast), would you be talking religion here?

 

 

In name of faith only one group has taken others down with self. And does so repeatedly. ..they seems to be perfecting this art..if u read news. 

 

Others vent for reasons like protest against govt,  mental disease etc.

Back home, our beloved pm was killed by suicide bomber due to certain policies his cabinet promulgated. So no others don't kill for religion. Only 1 group does. Does so regularly. 

 

Everyone has problems ...but only as you say misled youths from a particular belief think it's great to take others down with them.

 

Who thinks like this ? We are taught to sacrifice self for others.

 

Try seducing youths from other faiths into killing in name of belief. They will laugh into ur face and walk off. Everyone except these so called misled youths know where to draw the line in name of belief.

 

What is stopping these misled youngs to say no. You telling me this has nothing to do with the belief they are raised into..

Wow people are more smarter than that and so are you.

 

Wonder why folks even bother to defend, after so many deaths. Folks should be ashamed..please set the house in order..put  time and energies there rather than spending time on forums defending "misled" youths. 

 

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4 hours ago, ceogero said:

So sad: a few misled youths are seduced into blowing themselves into pieces taking many others with them, and here's conquistador (the name speaks volumes of religionism!) trying to make this into a religious war.

Just theoretically: if it had not been offspring of Arab immigrants but say some mid-western rednecks who had done that (think of the Oklahoma City blast), would you be talking religion here?

 

Yet another wretched feeble minded Islamic terrorist apologist

So sad you fail to comprehend that it is Islam that has declared holy war aka Jihad on the Western /Secular and Christian nations.

It is Islam that is currently committing genocide, mass rapes mass murder and wholesale barbaric torture.

It is in fact 3rd generation Arab immigrants who have just bombed Brussels and not Conquistador

 

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There is no "Islamopope."  "Islam" hasn't declared war on anything, how could it?  It's not a church or even a single thing. 

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Islam has indeed NOT declared war on anything - that is semantically  true. But countless thousands ( not the whole Islamic world) of ISLAMISTS have...and with horrifying results throughout many parts of the world. 

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So I Listen to NPR a lot...and if I hear one more person talk about how EUROPE needs to work on integrating Muslims more...I am seriously gonna scream!  

 

Muslims are no different than any other "immigrant group".  Get over yourselves.  When in Rome, etc.  Just like if I visited a Muslim country I would be expected to act accordingly.  

 

Muslims have all the opportunities of every of person in France, Germany, Belgium, UK, etc.  FUCKING FREE education!   You would not have it nearly as good in the USA.  Want to better youselves...than better yourselves.  When is the reality of culture versus opportunity gonna be talked about?  

 

 

 

  

 

  

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11 minutes ago, gemini said:

So I Listen to NPR a lot...and if I hear one more person talk about how EUROPE needs to work on integrating Muslims more...I am seriously gonna scream!  

 

Muslims are no different than any other "immigrant group".  Get over yourselves.  When in Rome, etc.  Just like if I visited a Muslim country I would be expected to act accordingly.  Get over yourselves.  

 

Muslims have all the opportunities of every of person in France, Germany, Belgium, UK, etc.  FUCKING FREE education!   You would not have it nearly as good in the USA.  Want to better youselves...than better yourselves.  When is the reality of culture versus opportunity gonna be talked about?  

 

 

In FAZ recently, terrorism expert Olivier Roy in fact defines integration and radicalization as largely orthogonal and the discussions that constantly conflate them besides the point -- in fact, it has more to do with a kind of nihilism/existential ennui:

 

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/islamforscher-im-gespraech-radikalisierung-ist-keine-folge-gescheiterter-integration-14145388.html

 

Quote

Ich glaube nicht, dass die islamische Radikalisierung die Folge einer gescheiterten Integration ist. Das ist ein Scheinproblem. Viele der jungen Leute, die in den Dschihad ziehen, sind integriert. Sie sprechen Französisch, Englisch oder Deutsch. Der „Islamische Staat“ (IS) hat ein frankophones Bataillon gegründet, weil die jungen Franzosen oder Belgier kaum Arabisch können. Nicht die mangelnde kulturelle Integration ist das Problem. Selbst in ihrem Bruch mit der Gesellschaft bleiben die europäischen Dschihadisten einem sehr westlichen Modell verbunden. Es ist nihilistisch, was überhaupt nicht der islamischen Tradition entspricht. Sie entwickeln eine Faszination für die Ästhetik der Gewalt, die sie aus Filmen und Videos kennen. Darin ähneln sie mehr den Amokläufern an der Columbine Highschool oder dem Massenmörder Anders Behring Breivik.

...

 

Ich streite die religiöse Dimension nicht ab. Sie ist wichtig, denn auf diese Weise können die Dschihadisten ihren Nihilismus in die Verheißung des Paradieses uminterpretieren. Ihr Selbstmord wird zur Garantie für das totale Leben. Ich betone nur: Diese jungen Leute kommen nicht aus der muslimischen Gemeinschaft. Die meisten haben keine religiöse Vorbildung, waren nur selten in der Moschee. Fast alle waren zuvor Kleinkriminelle. Sie haben Alkohol getrunken und Rauschgift konsumiert.

 

In Roy's view, Islam, because of the conflict present in the Muslims world, merely becomes an easily-accessible matrix for young nihilists to work through their nihilism, killing themselves and others to know they're alive.

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@ Eupathic :  Well glad to hear some reporters/pundits are actually looking beyond the easy answers.

 

Oh, and I had to look up "orthogonal...new vocab to me!"  

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8 minutes ago, gemini said:

@Eupathic Impulse Well it is VERY frustrating to hear Western pundits put the blame on Western Europe.  I think non integration is a non issue myself. Glad to hear someone is actually diasagreeing with this premise.

 

 

I think it's a mixed situation.  There is an integration problem, but it is one with known solutions.  Its relationship to the terrorism issue is subtle and indirect, largely in the social stasis that some aspects of poor integration can create.  The people who join ISIS come largely from two groups, petty criminals who can't see a way out of their lives -- this is the place where integration very indirectly matters to the discussion -- and bored, often privileged youth from middle class homes, searching for the Grand Meaning That Is Absent From Their Lives, in the style of the film Fight Club.  A lot of the latter are converts with little original connection to Islam as such. The taxi drivers who pray in the street hardly come into the picture here and represent a different set of social issues.  Then you have a group of utopia-claimants who have actually managed to establish a territory on which to enact their utopia/dystopia -- to a bored nihilist, a sort of heaven on earth where everyone has their special, irrevocable Place, and pointless decisions over petty things never need be made again. 

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I have to say then E.I, then you are making the case for limiting Muslim immigration!  

 

Other Immigrant groups, are not turning to terror when their expectations are not met...or they are "bored".   That speaks to me of an underlying cultural issue.

 

And why ARE 40% of Muslim persons unemployed?  Is it because women are not valued for education (as I am sure they are counted in the statistics)?  That education is not valued overall, as say compared to Asian cultures?  What explains this?  

 

There is also no "rule" that they all live together in the same area...thus perpetuating the issues.  However if say France or Belgium steped in and tried to limit the number of persons of a certain culture/place living in the same area...there would be hell to pay. 

 

 

  

 

 

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8 minutes ago, gemini said:

I have to say then E.I, then you are making the case for limiting Muslim immigration!  

 

The groups in question come from particular histories, not some generic "Muslim" history.  It's not a coincidence that the worst outcroppings of the phenomenon seem to be francophone.  And, about a quarter of them don't come from immigrant backgrounds at all, but found their connection to it over the internet.

 

8 minutes ago, gemini said:

 

Other Immigrant groups, are not turning to terror when their expectations are not met...or they are "bored".   That speaks to me of an underlying cultural issue.

 

 

Muslims raised in a more overtly religious environment are usually not the ones involved in these things.  The religious connection appears to be groups like ISIS offer easy validation of insecure identities, as well as a real-life kind of "playground" on which to enact a fantasy.  It's not that different from previous generations of nihilists-finding-meaning-in-violence. 

 

8 minutes ago, gemini said:

 

And why ARE 40% of Muslim persons unemployed?  Is it because women are not valued for education (as I am sure they are counted in the statistics)?  That education is not valued overall, as say compared to Asian cultures?  What explains this?  

 

High unemployment is not a thing that is specific to Muslims outside of particular countries.  However, many countries have minorities, not necessarily Muslim ones, that have high unemployment.  Every modern economy seems to generate an excluded "outclass", often unified by some kind of identity characteristic such as "race" or colour or ethnic background.

 

8 minutes ago, gemini said:

 

There is also no "rule" that they all live together in the same area...thus perpetuating the issues.  However if say France or Belgium steped in and tried to limit the number of persons of a certain culture/place living in the same area...there would be hell to pay. 

 

 

You underestimate the difficulty of leaving the ghetto.  Many US cities are highly segregated still -- on white/black lines.  Blacks who want to rent in certain neighbourhoods have to go to great measures to prove that they're not one of those blacks -- changing the way they talk, being extra careful about how they dress, and so on.  On the other hand, when one lives in a ghetto, no matter how poor, you get the support and sympathy of people who understand your life.  An extended family of sorts.

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6 hours ago, Wingjack said:

Yet another wretched feeble minded Islamic terrorist apologist

So sad you fail to comprehend that it is Islam that has declared holy war aka Jihad on the Western /Secular and Christian nations.

It is Islam that is currently committing genocide, mass rapes mass murder and wholesale barbaric torture.

It is in fact 3rd generation Arab immigrants who have just bombed Brussels and not Conquistador

 

ceogero has a bit of history on this forum, and may still be nursing a yearlong grudge against me. :lol: 

 

The "misguided youths" rubbish tells you all you need to know about his thought processes. Sure, ceogero, it's just a mere coincidence that these misguided Muslim youths targeted Western nations of which they are citizens for mass murder instead of Muslim ones, right? FYI, Tim McVeigh wasn't motivared by religious reasons and didn't target Muslims, but that's the sort of pesky little detail that escapes people who think that mass murderers are just "misguided youths".

 

EDIT: The Impulse actually greened that post by ceogero. Guess he's in apologist mode today too- you can't close the borders- misguided IS youths might not get back in from training in IS-land!

 

 

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3 hours ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

 

 

You underestimate the difficulty of leaving the ghetto.  Many US cities are highly segregated still -- on white/black lines.  Blacks who want to rent in certain neighbourhoods have to go to great measures to prove that they're not one of those blacks -- changing the way they talk, being extra careful about how they dress, and so on.  On the other hand, when one lives in a ghetto, no matter how poor, you get the support and sympathy of people who understand your life.  An extended family of sorts.

 

 

 

What claptrap nonsense you spout again.

Nobody wants gangbanger thugs living next to them regardless of ethnicity or skincolor

 

We have a  black President.

Blacks serve with honor and distinction in every facet of American society.

There is no door that is closed to a black person in the US.

Fact, blacks fair batter in the US than in any other nation on earth and that includes predominantly black nations.

In fact because of affirmative action some positions are easier to get for blacks than for whites or any other ethnic group even with lower qualifications.

I know Michelle Marie Antoinette Obama on her never ending multimillion dollar trips around the world continues to whine about alleged institutional racism toward her, but she is just one unfortunate example and does not speak for all the rest.

 

Some of course, unfortunately way  too many and not just blacks prefer to become gangbangers promoting and glorifying their chosen pseudo ghetto lifestyle.

Things can be tough in all neighborhoods, black, white and everything in-between.

In America more than in any other nation it is not the color of your skin but the content of your character that determines who you are.

And life is not fair – not even for black people. 

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4 hours ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

I think it's a mixed situation.  There is an integration problem, but it is one with known solutions.  Its relationship to the terrorism issue is subtle and indirect, largely in the social stasis that some aspects of poor integration can create.  The people who join ISIS come largely from two groups, petty criminals who can't see a way out of their lives -- this is the place where integration very indirectly matters to the discussion -- and bored, often privileged youth from middle class homes, searching for the Grand Meaning That Is Absent From Their Lives, in the style of the film Fight Club.  A lot of the latter are converts with little original connection to Islam as such. The taxi drivers who pray in the street hardly come into the picture here and represent a different set of social issues.  Then you have a group of utopia-claimants who have actually managed to establish a territory on which to enact their utopia/dystopia -- to a bored nihilist, a sort of heaven on earth where everyone has their special, irrevocable Place, and pointless decisions over petty things never need be made again. 

This is a sad case from Glasgow from the other day. By all accounts, a very popular Muslim shopkeeper who dared to wish Christians a Happy Easter and was viciously murdered in what seems to have  been a sectarian attack, according to the  police. This is the type of guy whose personal religious beliefs I wouldn´t mock because he seems to have been a kind person.

I wonder who killed him...apparently a Muslim but what kind of one? Why?

 

http://www.scotsman.com/regions/glasgow-strathclyde/pleas-for-calm-following-sectarian-killing-in-glasgow-1-4083579

 

The article says he was an Ahmadi..a Muslim grouping not widely accepted in Pakistan by other  Muslim groups  and subject to persecution...

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6 minutes ago, Wingjack said:

 

 

What claptrap nonsense you spout again.

Nobody wants gangbanger thugs living next to them regardless of ethnicity or skincolor

 

We have a  black President.

Blacks serve with honor and distinction in every facet of American society.

There is no door that is closed to a black person in the US.

Fact, blacks fair batter in the US than in any other nation on earth and that includes predominantly black nations.

In fact because of affirmative action some positions are easier to get for blacks than for whites or any other ethnic group even with lower qualifications.

I know Michelle Marie Antoinette Obama on her never ending multimillion dollar trips around the world continues to whine about alleged institutional racism toward her, but she is just one unfortunate example and does not speak for all the rest.

 

Some of course, unfortunately way  too many and not just blacks prefer to become gangbangers promoting and glorifying their chosen pseudo ghetto lifestyle.

Things can be tough in all neighborhoods, black, white and everything in-between.

In America more than in any other nation it is not the color of your skin but the content of your character that determines who you are.

And life is not fair – not even for black people. 

 

I lived in a majority-minority district in the USA for years, you don't know the least bit of what you're talking about, obviously.

 

Hey @Katajena Taylor Swift meme requested in aisle 9.

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