Brussels Terror Attacks: Islamist Jihadist Terrorists Strike Again

502 posts in this topic

'Why do they have to be so f**cking long - and boring!

 

How do immigrants who refuse to integrate demand social inclusion?

By demanding of the locals to conform to them:

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5 minutes ago, Conquistador said:

I'm going to give this a more worthy response as time permits (I am taking care of two urchins by myself), but as someone who, like me, had a bicultural upbringing, doesn't it seem dubious that French republicanism is to blame? Turks in Germany don't identify with the larger society either, and Maghribens have always had the advantage of being intimately familiar with French culture and ways of thinking (the same applies to US Hispanics within that context, BTW).

 

Yes but the problem of disidentification with the society of upbringing seems to be a lot stronger in (parts of) France than it does with Turks in Germany in my observation.  There's self-ghettoization, which is a problem, and racism/discrimination, which is a problem on the other side, but then there's out and out hostile alienation, rather than mere passive ghettoization, and that's another dimension of hurt.  From what I read (and on occasion heard in person) from successful French Muslims, the psychological and practical barriers some of them had to overcome to reconcile their backgrounds and life histories with their careers seems, on average, to be a lot higher than what I hear from successful Turks who leave the ghetto and succeed in German society.

 

5 minutes ago, Conquistador said:

 

When I was growing up, we observed one culture at home and within the community, and another outside of it.

 

As you constantly like to point out, I too was raised in a minority home, and it was mostly the same for me.  But the difference is that you and I were brought up in the USA and Canada respectively, where identitarian discourses are much more both/and rather than either/or as they tend to be in Europe.  Naturally, in Canada, Québec is highly influenced by French-from-France intellectuals, and these conflicts are a little sharper, but not overwhelmingly so, being as they too are an immigrant society.

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5 minutes ago, Conquistador said:

This is the typical Impulse response- faulty premises lead to faulty conclusions. Behaving as one wants in their personal space isn't an absolute- no one is keeping Muslims from having halal kitchens or praying when they feel like it at home, speaking the language or their choice, or associating/congregating with other Muslims, etc. But Muslims are going to run into problems, for example, when they compel their daughters into forced marriages they don't want to get into and don't accept, especially if it leads to honor killings. A Muslim father can't beat his daughter in their apartment because she lost her virginity. And so on.

 

But what do these things have to do with "personal space"?  I mean personal space very literally here.  The area around me.  Have you been going around imagining I was using some kind of other kind of personal space?  All those practices I certainly oppose and think should be illegal.  Whatever made you jump to the conclusion that I thought they should be legal and permitted? 

 

The sort of kids who get attracted to ISIS are anyway not, as a rule, the sort of kids who come from that background.  Those are actually two separate phenomena.

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10 minutes ago, Conquistador said:

 

 

OK, to make it a bit clear to someone being deliberately obtuse- you can find a Muslim society, or one that has a large Muslim minority and doesn't have a problem with Muslim cultural practices, e.g., French Arabs in North African countries. In your case, you were raised by Muslim immigrants from India, so perhaps you would feel comfortable in one of the South Asian countries or one of the Gulf states, with their South Asian disaporas.

 

I have no personal identity crisis dude.  The only reason why you even know those aspects of my background is because years ago, I thought we were going to have a discussion of identity questions in honesty and good faith, but fundamentally different political assumptions took hold and it was impossible.   For you, I am a Canadian left-wing social liberal who certainly has no intention or desire to live in whatever place my ancestors came from.  There's nothing intrinsically wrong with it, of course, but I have no particular reason to want to go there.

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14 minutes ago, Wingjack said:

'Why do they have to be so f**cking long - and boring!

 

Your mind is easily bored and exhausted, it seems.  Perhaps discussion of serious topics with anything more than finger-paint diagrams is not your cup of tea.

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@Eupathic Impulse I have to admire that you are not shying away from any discussion and answering every critic/question thrown at you, whether I agree with or not is secondary but your readiness to participate is always good. :)

 

On the other hand, as much as you want to say about people coming from different cultures and adjusting. It is not the case with Islam. The attacks that happened were carried out by "home grown locals", meaning they have been here for over 2-3 decades and still are more inclined and connected to ISIS and Islam than respecting local cultures that they went all the way to get trained to destroy the places that gave them EVERYTHING. I have lived with Muslims for years and they are great people. I do not see all of them in the same light. But I always question and critic Islam(like any other religion) and still find the ideology completely strange. And personally, I have not see other culture demanding as much adjustment as Islamic(I refer to the general practices like wanting Halal meat, separate prayer rooms, to allow them to practice Burqa, etc). These are my views and I strongly believe unless Islam undergoes a big reform(which seems impossible because some idiot wrote this is the best version of religion!) it will be very very difficult. :(

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Kaa666: very fair post!

I will ask a question - just out of interest!

EI: are you actually a practising Muslim? I don´t judge you if you are or not but just curious.

For the record: I´m not a practising anything.

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5 minutes ago, Kaa666 said:

But I always question and critic Islam(like any other religion) and still find the ideology completely strange. And personally, I have not see other culture demanding as much adjustment as Islamic(I refer to the general practices like wanting Halal meat, separate prayer rooms, to allow them to practice Burqa, etc).

 

That is a question that many Muslims have wrestled with and is certainly an interesting one.  There's a large "orthopraxy" in Islam that comes from Semitic ritual law, seeing as Islam originated with a Semitic people -- like Judaism, whose orthodox (really, "orthopractical") versions have very similar laws.  Christianity jettisoned the orthopraxy in its fusion with Roman religion (but gained other things it took centuries to reform) -- however, Ethiopean Christianity, for example, kept many Judaic ritual laws.  How much of that can really be applied to the modern world is a topic of debate and even groups like the Muslim Brotherhood differ from Salafist extremists, with the former having a more wide-ranging modern accommodation. 

 

However, this is quite far from the topic of bombings in particular, since the bombers themselves weren't really engaged in questions of ritual law nor, as I understand it, did they come from an environment that was particularly demanding on that front.

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2 minutes ago, john g. said:

 

I will ask a question - just out of interest!

EI: are you actually a practising Muslim? I don´t judge you if you are or not but just curious.

For the record: I´m not a practising anything.

 

Inside my special sealed capsule there is not much scope, alas, for the practice of anything.  I'm not even sure if the protein slurry fed via the tube into my stomach is sourced from halal sources.

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3 minutes ago, john g. said:

So you would like to practise your faith but don´t have time?:rolleyes:..fair enough.

 

I live in a sealed capsule neurally connected to the internet.  The whole question is irrelevant.  I'm employed by the Neptuniarchs (sorry, Conquistador, you were just one planet off) for the purpose of something called "Psy Ops", where my brain waves take over yours through sympathetic amplification.  Unfortunately this piece of Neptuniarch technology is still in the testing phase.

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48 minutes ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

 

But what is a "Muslim society" is itself an extremely vague category without much unifying description and certainly no clear separation from any other kind of human society.  It's very difficult for someone who doesn't reify categories this way to communicate with someone who does.

ISIS think they have the answer to that question apparently.

 

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Just now, Keleth said:

ISIS think they have the answer to that question apparently.

 

 

Yes, and it's a really bad and unpopular one.  It's even increasingly unpopular with its original "growth medium", Iraqi Sunnis, but those folks are kind of trapped between a rock and a hard place.

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2 minutes ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

I live in a sealed capsule neurally connected to the internet.  The whole question is irrelevant.  I'm employed by the Neptuniarchs (sorry, Conquistador, you were just one planet off) for the purpose of something called "Psy Ops", where my brain waves take over yours through sympathetic amplification.  Unfortunately this piece of Neptuniarch technology is still in the testing phase.

Cute but evasive!:lol:

So what kind of Muslim are you? Rangers or Celtic?:D

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Just now, john g. said:

Cute but evasive!:lol:

So what kind of Muslim are you? Rangers or Celtic?:D

 

Fine fine. Let's say, a rather casual one in some of the points that seem the most stereotypical. *rolleyes*  But you'll understand that after my experience with Conquistador, I am disinclined to talk about myself. 

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Or as they used to say in Belfast  - OK so you're a Muslim but are you a Catholic Muslim or a Protestant Muslim?

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Just now, kiplette said:

Or as they used to say in Belfast  - OK so you're a Muslim but are you a Catholic Muslim or a Protestant Muslim?

 

I love church architecture and fripperies and honestly Catholicism is just so much more fun that way so I'd have to say Catholic.  Protestantism is too austere.  Who is the Protestant Michaelangelo?  Anyone? Bueller?

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4 minutes ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

Fine fine. Let's say, a rather casual one in some of the points that seem the most stereotypical. *rolleyes*  But you'll understand that after my experience with Conquistador, I am disinclined to talk about myself. 

Well, leave Conqi out of it..talk to me! I´m all ears! Conqi maybe has kids to look after this evening...my baby girl has flown the nest!!! There is NOTHING WRONG in my mind if people have a religious belief as long as they don´t try to force it down other people´s throats. Or radically and violently try to change other societies. 

" Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! "

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10 minutes ago, Eupathic Impulse said:

 

I love church architecture and fripperies and honestly Catholicism is just so much more fun that way so I'd have to say Catholic.  Protestantism is too austere.  Who is the Protestant Michaelangelo?  Anyone? Bueller?

https://www.google.gr/search?q=protestant+reformation+architecture&rlz=1C1EODB_enDE511DE530&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=979&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixrNa9tNzLAhUFPxoKHYcEBPIQsAQIPw&dpr=1

 

(just googled it for fun! )..I´ve no idea really!!!

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