Brexit / Applying for German citizenship

[itsthejb 3]

Hello everyone,

 

My my this is a mega thread! Doesn't seem to have been any updates since a deal was actually finally passed. I can't say I monitor this (hot) topic very closely, but as far as I'm aware there will be no "Hard Brexit", and the rest of 2020 will therefore be the long talked about transition period.

 

As far as I'm aware, if one applies for citizenship during the transition period then dual nationality is definitely possible. This article certainly states so, and this is exactly what was expected.

 

I've heard, interestingly enough, that certain districts are totally swamped because of this, with decision times in the years! This actually doesn't concern me; only that I log the application and qualify for the dual citizenship as and when I'm processed. If it were not, I'd just stick with the permanent residency I already have and not lose any sleep.

 

So, the question is: any contrary information here? Seems the situation is pretty clear, and no need for insanity such as rushing in an application before the end of January...?

 

As such I'll get around to applying at some point

[AdHa 55]

@itsthejb

 

Your location says you're in the UK so I'm scratching my head on this one...

 

[zwiebelfisch 7,067]

26 minutes ago, itsthejb said:

This article certainly states so, and this is exactly what was expected.

 

Dont trust thelocal.  It is widely regarded (even though it owns Toytown) as being pretty useless.

 

27 minutes ago, itsthejb said:

I'd just stick with the permanent residency I already have and not lose any sleep.

 

Fair point, this is the reality for many of us brits.  There are some advantages to citizenship, but for most of us PR is enough.

 

29 minutes ago, itsthejb said:

no "Hard Brexit", and the rest of 2020 will therefore be the long talked about transition period

 

Seems likely, but if you plan to apply for dual nationality Id recommend doing it asap.

 

31 minutes ago, itsthejb said:

certain districts are totally swamped because of this, with decision times in the years

 

Dont know about for brits, but I know some people with other nationalities (Iranian for example) who have been waiting over a year and a few years ago an indian friend waited about a year.  I have no idea whats normal, but its definately measured in months rather than days or weeks.  Id expect its hugely dependant on area.

[Keleth 9,346]

9 hours ago, zwiebelfisch said:

Dont know about for brits, but I know some people with other nationalities (Iranian for example) who have been waiting over a year and a few years ago an indian friend waited about a year.  I have no idea whats normal, but its definately measured in months rather than days or weeks.  Id expect its hugely dependant on area.

I was told by the einburgerungamt that they`ve been told to rush through the UK citizens applications because of Brexit.

9 hours ago, itsthejb said:

Doesn't seem to have been any updates since a deal was actually finally passed.

Brexit burnout.

9 hours ago, itsthejb said:

So, the question is: any contrary information here? Seems the situation is pretty clear, and no need for insanity such as rushing in an application before the end of January...?

Nothing is yet 100% certain.

[dj_jay_smith 3,449]

1 hour ago, Keleth said:

I was told by the einburgerungamt that they`ve been told to rush through the UK citizens applications because of Brexit.

 

 

 

And I believe that others on here have also reported that the date of application counts, not the date of approval.

 

 

11 hours ago, itsthejb said:

...

So, the question is: any contrary information here? Seems the situation is pretty clear, and no need for insanity such as rushing in an application before the end of January...?

 

...

 

To be honest if I was you if you meet the criteria now then apply ASAP.  Technically the UK leaves the EU at the end of January.  After that in theory everything should remain virtually the same until the end of the year due to the transition period, but I still think that you are relying upon the good will of the authorities to some extent as technically the UK is no longer an EU member, and if negotiations fail (which they still can) then the atmosphere might change and there could still be a hard Brexit at the end of 2020.

 

Whereas if you apply before the end of January then there is no doubt that until that point in time the UK is an EU member.

 

So if you qualify now, why not apply?

 

 

 

 

 

[sinfony 30]

On 12/01/2020, 19:40:12, itsthejb said:

Hello everyone,

 

As far as I'm aware, if one applies for citizenship during the transition period then dual nationality is definitely possible. This article certainly states so, and this is exactly what was expected.

 

According to the German government website this is indeed the case, obviously provided that the Withdrawal Agreement passes into law and we enter the transition period.

 

"Essentially, under German law the United Kingdom will continue to be treated like an EU member state during the transition period. The citizenship regulations will also remain unchanged until the end of 2020: British citizens applying for German citizenship during this period will be entitled to retain their British passport, and vice versa – even if a final decision on the application is not taken until after the end of the transition period."

 

https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/themen/brexit/eu-states-agree-on-article-50-extension-1686144

 

I believe the basis for this is Section 3 of this Act passed by the German government:

https://www.bgbl.de/xaver/bgbl/text.xav?SID=&tf=xaver.component.Text_0&tocf=&qmf=&hlf=xaver.component.Hitlist_0&bk=bgbl&start=%2F%2F*%5B%40node_id%3D%27355057%27%5D&skin=pdf&tlevel=-2&nohist=1

[shannon 20]

I have an appointment in the Landratsamt on the 27 January. With this application form.Very last minute!!  :-) 

[steilkuste 0]

Hi 

I am registered in Berlin as British. With Brexit looming, I applied and received an Irish passport.

Do I have to now inform the German authorities that I have an Eu Passport as well a a UK one?

 

[AdHa 55]

On 2/4/2020, 12:10:42, steilkuste said:

Hi 

I am registered in Berlin as British. With Brexit looming, I applied and received an Irish passport.

Do I have to now inform the German authorities that I have an Eu Passport as well a a UK one?

 

 

Probably worth going to your Ausländerbehörde and informing them so that they have the info that you're registered as an Irish citizen (therefore still EU).

[Berlinexpatnine 28]

I am in the final stages of getting German citizenship for my family (submitted our documents in May 2019), but I have gone on Kurzarbeit due to the coronavirus crisis in the last month.

 

Does anyone know if Kurzarbeit disqualifies you for citizenship? It isn't mentioned in the brochure on getting citizenship in Germany; it just says you can't be getting ALG II (Hartz 4) or Sozialhilfe. The brochure I am referring to is here, page 20: 

 

https://www.bundesregierung.de/resource/blob/975292/1543188/88d72e6ce4af2bbac9b565afb054fa5f/die-deutsche-staatsbuergerschaft-07-11-18-download-neu-ba-ib-data.pdf?download=1 

 

I think I am earning enough even with Kurzarbeit, assuming I understand the earnings minimum for Berlin correctly: Warmmiete + 416 per adult + 296 per child. Is that correct? Elsewhere I've heard something like "900 per adult and 600 per child" but now I can't even find where I might have read that and I'm not sure that is true at all.

[john_b 3,387]

On 04/02/2020, 12:10:42, steilkuste said:

Hi 

I am registered in Berlin as British. With Brexit looming, I applied and received an Irish passport.

Do I have to now inform the German authorities that I have an Eu Passport as well a a UK one?

 

Make an appointment at your Bürgeramt (granted, not so easy at the moment) and register with your Irish passport. It's required, in your interest and won't take more than a few minutes.

[libuz 2]

On 5/1/2020, 7:34:33, Berlinexpatnine said:

I am in the final stages of getting German citizenship for my family (submitted our documents in May 2019), but I have gone on Kurzarbeit due to the coronavirus crisis in the last month.

 

Does anyone know if Kurzarbeit disqualifies you for citizenship? It isn't mentioned in the brochure on getting citizenship in Germany; it just says you can't be getting ALG II (Hartz 4) or Sozialhilfe. The brochure I am referring to is here, page 20: 

 

https://www.bundesregierung.de/resource/blob/975292/1543188/88d72e6ce4af2bbac9b565afb054fa5f/die-deutsche-staatsbuergerschaft-07-11-18-download-neu-ba-ib-data.pdf?download=1 

 

I think I am earning enough even with Kurzarbeit, assuming I understand the earnings minimum for Berlin correctly: Warmmiete + 416 per adult + 296 per child. Is that correct? Elsewhere I've heard something like "900 per adult and 600 per child" but now I can't even find where I might have read that and I'm not sure that is true at all.

 

First, you need to inform the Behörde that you are in Kurzarbeit. Did you already inform them? I am also in similar position.

[Berlinexpatnine 28]

5 hours ago, libuz said:

 

First, you need to inform the Behörde that you are in Kurzarbeit. Did you already inform them? I am also in similar position.

My lawyer advised me to not inform them immediately because I just submitted paperwork going through March 2020, which was the second update to my file. He also thought that no real action would be taken until the crisis was over, and that I would simply have to wait until Kurzarbeit was over to get citizenship. I then started wondering whether Kurzarbeit is a KO condition for citizenship (it is not listed as one), but my understanding now is that the non-sustainable nature of my Kurzarbeit income is the problem. I believe my income is sufficient, but I will not be allowed citizenship because my income is in part based on non-permanent Kurzarbeit income.

[kapil354 94]

20 hours ago, Berlinexpatnine said:

My lawyer advised me to not inform them immediately because I just submitted paperwork going through March 2020, which was the second update to my file. He also thought that no real action would be taken until the crisis was over, and that I would simply have to wait until Kurzarbeit was over to get citizenship. I then started wondering whether Kurzarbeit is a KO condition for citizenship (it is not listed as one), but my understanding now is that the non-sustainable nature of my Kurzarbeit income is the problem. I believe my income is sufficient, but I will not be allowed citizenship because my income is in part based on non-permanent Kurzarbeit income.

I wonder by the same logic if someone applied for naturalization in March 2020. 

 

And moved from full time work to starting his or her biz in April 2020.

 

Then, he / she can not do so! That somehow doesnot sound right. 

But I am not expert. But, I guess they would look at your previous year income and also in the current year how much you have already made.

 

Experts here, please feel free to correct me. :) 

[kapil354 94]

On 5/1/2020, 7:34:33, Berlinexpatnine said:

I am in the final stages of getting German citizenship for my family (submitted our documents in May 2019), but I have gone on Kurzarbeit due to the coronavirus crisis in the last month.

 

Does anyone know if Kurzarbeit disqualifies you for citizenship? It isn't mentioned in the brochure on getting citizenship in Germany; it just says you can't be getting ALG II (Hartz 4) or Sozialhilfe. The brochure I am referring to is here, page 20: 

 

https://www.bundesregierung.de/resource/blob/975292/1543188/88d72e6ce4af2bbac9b565afb054fa5f/die-deutsche-staatsbuergerschaft-07-11-18-download-neu-ba-ib-data.pdf?download=1 

 

I think I am earning enough even with Kurzarbeit, assuming I understand the earnings minimum for Berlin correctly: Warmmiete + 416 per adult + 296 per child. Is that correct? Elsewhere I've heard something like "900 per adult and 600 per child" but now I can't even find where I might have read that and I'm not sure that is true at all.

May 2019 or 2020?

 

I thought in Hamburg or some other Northern states they give it in 3months?

 

Does one year sound alright to you? Or, bit too late?

[Berlinexpatnine 28]

 

 

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 Advanced issue found

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4 hours ago, kapil354 said:

May 2019 or 2020?

 

I thought in Hamburg or some other Northern states they give it in 3months?

 

Does one year sound alright to you? Or, bit too late?

 

4 hours ago, kapil354 said:

 

I went for the original appointment in May 2018 or so, but didn't have the application together for submission until May 2019.

 

In May 2018 they told me that it would take two years for them to process the naturalization application from the point it was submitted. When I went back in May 2019 to submit the application, they said it would be 18 months unless the Bezirk got more staffing. I estimate that each Bezirk in Berlin normally has to process about 50 people per month for naturalization, but that Brexit was really gumming up certain Brit-rich Bezirke through the sheer number of applications all at once. We're talking about Pankow here, of which Prenzlauer Berg is a large part, and I would guess it has 10 times the normal number of UK citizens, although I guess the former British sector probably has a lot too.

 

They've had me update the file twice since I submitted, asking for a few other documents each time in addition to my financials. The documents they wanted were things like a letter from my son's grade school teacher stating that he was well integrated in the German classroom and copies of his current Aufenthaltstitel. Not anything serious.

 

[Berlinexpatnine 28]

5 hours ago, kapil354 said:

I wonder by the same logic if someone applied for naturalization in March 2020. 

 

And moved from full time work to starting his or her biz in April 2020.

 

Then, he / she can not do so! That somehow doesnot sound right. 

But I am not expert. But, I guess they would look at your previous year income and also in the current year how much you have already made.

 

Experts here, please feel free to correct me. :) 

Unless you could immediately show that your business was making sufficient money right from the start, becoming self-employed would definitely be a problem for naturalization. They ask your accountant to show how much money you have left over each month after paying all expenses, taxes, and contributions for health insurance and social security. If that amount isn't sufficient, you have no basis for naturalization.

[engelchen 13,041]

On 04/05/2020, 21:38:57, Berlinexpatnine said:

My lawyer advised me to not inform them immediately because I just submitted paperwork going through March 2020, which was the second update to my file.

 

Did your lawyer give you this advice in writing?  Who is your lawyer?

 

Why are you asking here if you are already paying a lawyer for advice?

 

[Berlinexpatnine 28]

3 hours ago, engelchen said:

 

Did your lawyer give you this advice in writing?  Who is your lawyer?

 

Why are you asking here if you are already paying a lawyer for advice?

 

I think I should say lawyers, because I've had more than one lawyer on this case, and at times I've been given incomplete and conflicting advice, in part because there are certain matters that are not completely settled in German law. I try to confirm what they tell me independently by reading the relevant decisions and policies myself because the stakes are very high. In this case the lawyer gave me this advice in writing, but it was not clear to me what part of my situation might now prevent my naturalization. In any case, my lawyer has suggested that we will have to have the matter settled in administrative court. I believe what he tells me, and I'm really impressed with the research and argumentation of my current lawyer, but I know he is simply doing the best he can. I still would like to hear from others on the Kurzarbeit issue. On other forums I've read that Kurzarbeit should have not have any bearing on naturalization unless your income is too low to sustain you and your family members. I don't know if that is really true. In any case, attaining citizenship will be crucial for one of my family members, and they ask me every few days about what is going on with the decision and whether I have it all figured out yet.

 

Why am I asking here? Because I'm worried to death about it and was hoping someone might have already tested this issue, perhaps during the last period of mass Kurzarbeit after the financial crisis. I'm in a position of just waiting for the next move the authorities, but it sucks to have no certainty. I've also been watching the news to see if the issue of Kurzarbeit and naturalization is being addressed. Strangely enough, the issue is discussed a lot in Switzerland, but I see nothing about it in Germany. Germany seems to be too concerned with the immediacy of the crisis to worry about foreigners and their naturalization problems, which I guess is understandable.

[Berlinexpatnine 28]

I actually just found this PowerPoint on the topic:  https://www.jurati.de/downloads/Sicherung%20des%20Lebensunterhaltes.pdf

 

The only problem is that it isn't clear if all of this applies when citizenship is being applied for and whether Kurzarbeitergeld is an acceptable source of income (although it seems to be strongly suggested that it is).