Brexit / Applying for German citizenship

[shannon 20]

Yes thanks Leon I will ask but just read on the facebook site that the Aufenthaltes thing becomes invalid when we leave the EU. They said to apply for a residence permit. 

So if I have the interview for duel citizenship before oct 31 and theres a no deal brexit then its too late, but if there is a deal then they will give me time to take and pass the B1 and Einbürgerungstest? 

[LeonG 14,861]

2 minutes ago, shannon said:

Yes thanks Leon I will ask but just read on the facebook site that the Aufenthaltes thing becomes invalid when we leave the EU. They said to apply for a residence permit. 

So if I have the interview for duel citizenship before oct 31 and theres a no deal brexit then its too late, but if there is a deal then they will give me time to take and pass the B1 and Einbürgerungstest? 

 

I don't know.  That's why you need to talk to your local ABH.  Let them know about your situation and ask what happens in case of a deal or no deal and if they can give you time.

[shannon 20]

Ok will do thanks Leon!  thanks Robinson too,Ive only just seen your reply. Also  I'm so sorry to hear Keefy, Its nice to see your'e still on here 

[Derek 1,027]

Pondering out loud what's going on in my head ... I had my application meeting and handed over my documents before the end of May and was told they expect it to take 5 or 6 months. So there's every chance my application decision will be in November or maybe even December.

 

I asked at my meeting "what if it's a no-deal brexit"? They didn't know. Since then though I learned here that the official German line now is that as long as your application was made before the brexit date, you can keep dual citizenship.

 

" In the event of a disorderly Brexit, a similar provision has been put in place for naturalization candidates who apply before the date of the UK leaving the European Union."

 

I just wonder whether they're going to say to me that I can't keep both and I then have to try and convince them they're wrong. Even having a link to the proof in English and in German I hope I won't have to be in conflict with them.

[sinfony 30]

19 minutes ago, Derek said:

Pondering out loud what's going on in my head ... I had my application meeting and handed over my documents before the end of May and was told they expect it to take 5 or 6 months. So there's every chance my application decision will be in November or maybe even December.

 

I asked at my meeting "what if it's a no-deal brexit"? They didn't know. Since then though I learned here that the official German line now is that as long as your application was made before the brexit date, you can keep dual citizenship.

 

" In the event of a disorderly Brexit, a similar provision has been put in place for naturalization candidates who apply before the date of the UK leaving the European Union."

 

I just wonder whether they're going to say to me that I can't keep both and I then have to try and convince them they're wrong. Even having a link to the proof in English and in German I hope I won't have to be in conflict with them.

 

This has already been enshrined in law with the Act on Transition Provisions on Labour, Education, Health and Social Affairs, and Citizenship-

 

Article 3 (1) sets out that Brits who have entered an application before the exit date will, irrespective of a no-deal, not be obliged to give up their British citizenship in order to take on German citizenship, provided that they fulfil the necessary requirements before the exit date and continue to fulfil them at the time of being naturalised.

[Derek 1,027]

4 minutes ago, sinfony said:

 

This has already been enshrined in law with the Act on Transition Provisions on Labour, Education, Health and Social Affairs, and Citizenship-

 

Article 3 (1) sets out that Brits who have entered an application before the exit date will, irrespective of a no-deal, not be obliged to give up their British citizenship in order to take on German citizenship, provided that they fulfil the necessary requirements before the exit date and continue to fulfil them at the time of being naturalised.

 

Yeah. Just hope I don't have to try arguing with them about it. They didn't know about it in May even though it was in law before that.

[sinfony 30]

2 minutes ago, Derek said:

 

Yeah. Just hope I don't have to try arguing with them about it. They didn't know about it in May even though it was in law before that.

 

If need be, refer them to page 11 here (or print it out yourself to present it to them):

http://www.bgbl.de/xaver/bgbl/start.xav?startbk=Bundesanzeiger_BGBl&jumpTo=bgbl119s0418.pdf

 

 

[Derek 1,027]

1 hour ago, sinfony said:

 

If need be, refer them to page 11 here (or print it out yourself to present it to them):

http://www.bgbl.de/xaver/bgbl/start.xav?startbk=Bundesanzeiger_BGBl&jumpTo=bgbl119s0418.pdf

 

 

Thanks. I had been to that page but it looked quite daunting. Hopefully by now (or after a nodeal brexit if it happens) that department will have a memo circulated clarifying what they should already know by now :)

[ruapehu 3,756]

On ‎16‎.‎08‎.‎2019‎ ‎21‎:‎02‎:‎57, LeonG said:

As for the Guyanese, yes, that's another matter, if they know about it.  I don't know if they register you as a dual citizen in their systems.  I saw a post from someone at some point stating that he was in Germany as a non-EU and would have had to give up his other citizenship in order to become a German.  He was eligible for another EU citizenship based on heritage so he applied for that and then changed his registration with immigration from non-EU to EU.  In this case, he could apply for and gain German citizenship as well as keep his other EU as well as his non-EU which they did not seem to know about anymore.

This is unfortunately not correct. German does not allow dual/multi citizenship except for specific pre-approved cases, or EU-citizenship. On the application form, you must state that you will renounce your other citizenship/s in order to get German. So essentially, the person who may have managed to keep a non-EU citizenship has not actually found a workaround, but has broken the law. I was able to keep UK citizenship but had to renounce NZ in order to get German citizenship (i have never been registered in Germany as a NZer, always as an EU-citizen. I still had to admit to any other citizenships, and renounce). Any person who keeps a non EU citizenship without prior approval has basically gained German citizenship illegally. I don't know how likely it is they can get caught, but they will be stripped of German if they are. I was handed this letter to make it absolutely clear to me that I couldn't just re-apply for NZ afterwards.

[Prosie 230]

Has anyone applying to Karlsruhe been called for the citizenship interview they do there? My local Beamtin who takes in the applications then forwards them to Karlsruhe told me this is one of their specialities.They want to ensure applicants understand what they are signing up to when they make their declaration of loyalty. So they send a copy of their "Belehrung" (which briefly explains German political structures and organisation etc) and summon you for an interview to quiz you on it. My interview is next week. Would love to know if anyone can here can share experiences of this so I have a bit more of an idea what to expect. Thank you!

[Prosie 230]

To answer my own question, the interview was short (10 minutes-ish) & informal. Questions included: what do I understand the declaration of loyalty to mean - what  kind of system am I signing up to & what does it mean to me; what is a main difference between the British & German electoral systems (Merheitswahl vs Verhältniswahl); name some areas where Länder differ (education, police); what is an area currently in the news which shows disagreement between Länder & Bund (Klimapolitik); what parts of German constitution can't be removed (Menschenwürde, Demokratie/Rechtsstaat/Sozialstaat, Föderalismus). There was also a bit of chit-chat about Brexit & reasons for Einbürgerung. I can imagine it would have been a tricky interview for someone with only B1 German, but I guess she'd have to simplify her vocabulary in that case.

For anyone interested in timelines, the original application with all documentation was submitted to local town hall at end of March. Acknowledgment from Landkreis Karlsruhe and payment in mid May. Final appointment and Einbürgerung, today.

[dj_jay_smith 3,449]

6 minutes ago, Prosie said:

... what is a main difference between the British & German electoral systems (Merheitswahl vs Verhältniswahl);...

 

I wonder what they would have done if you had turned round and said 

 

"I don't follow UK politics, so I have no idea how the UK system works and therefore can't highlight the difference!"

 

 

[Prosie 230]

 Wish I'd thought of that!

[Prosie 230]

Oh and another timeline - daughter in Heidelberg. Whole process start to finish 3 weeks. No quizzes involved :D

[Derek 1,027]

Has anyone received a phone call during the processing of your application asking for more info? I just got one asking for more income info of 2018/2019. It makes me wonder if I'm almost at the end of the process now, assuming they're happy with the info I give them.

 

Or have people here had such calls and it still took months beyond that?

[Derek 1,027]

We've talked in this thread a lot about being able to get Doppeltestaatsbürgerschaft or not, but how do you actually know if that's what you got? I recall from my original meeting that it's what I asked for but I'm not sure how I'll know if I got it (when I go to pick up my Staatsbürgerschaft documents today. Is it somehow like with the driving licence? I'm not sure how it can be, but with the driving licence swapover to German you have to hand over your UK one - you can't have both. I could imagine if I had such a British Staatsbürgerschaft document then the question of whether I would have to hand that in and get a German one in return. But for Doppeltestaatsbürgerschaft I wouldn't have to hand it in, I'd get to keep both. But of course I don't have such a British Staatsbürgerschaft document, I just have my birth certificate and passport. There's nothing else that proves my British citizenship really.

 

So this idea of whether you get to be Doppel or not, I'm not sure how that works. I want to ensure I did get to keep Doppel (because Brexit still didn't happen) but I'd rather do it without having to ask (as it would seem somewhat ungrateful).

[dj_jay_smith 3,449]

1 minute ago, Derek said:

We've talked in this thread a lot about being able to get Doppeltestaatsbürgerschaft or not, but how do you actually know if that's what you got? I recall from my original meeting that it's what I asked for but I'm not sure how I'll know if I got it (when I go to pick up my Staatsbürgerschaft dockuments today. Is it somehow like with the driving licence? I'm not sure how it can be, but with the driving licence swapover to German you have to hand over your UK one - you can't have both. I could imagine if I had such a British Staatsbürgerschaft document then the question of whether I would have to hand that in and get a German one in return. But for Doppeltestaatsbürgerschaft I wouldn't have to hand it in, I'd get to keep both. But of course I don't have such a British Doppeltestaatsbürgerschaft document, I just have my birth certificate and passport. There's nothing else that proves my British citizenship really.

 

So this idea of whether you get to be Doppel or not, I'm not sure how that works. I want to ensure I did get to keep Doppel (because Brexit still didn't happen) but I'd rather do it without having to ask (as it would seem somewhat ungrateful).

 

 

If you don't qualify for dual citizenship then you are required to give up your previous citizenship BEFORE you can become German.

 

This means that you start the process and have to sign a form (I think) declaring that you know and accept these conditions.  Then at the appropriate time you receive a letter stating that you need to denounce your previous citizenship and that your application for German citizenship will only continue when you can prove that this is accepted and completed by your current country of citizenship. 

 

Then when you can prove this then you send that to the authorities and you should receive your German citizenship shortly afterwards.  

 

Normal citizens who are not naturalised don't have a citizenship certificate.  But, if you have a passport then this is confirmation of your citizenship as checks will be performed upon you when you apply for it which include verifying where you were born, to whom etc. for which you need your birth certificate.

[theGman 3,520]

If you get given your Einbürgerung certificate then you'll have both nationalities. Simple as that.

 

Otherwise, they will ask for proof that you have renounced your British nationality before giving it to you.

[Derek 1,027]

17 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

If you don't qualify for dual citizenship then you are required to give up your previous citizenship BEFORE you can become German.

 

16 minutes ago, theGman said:

If you get given your Einbürgerung certificate then you'll have both nationalities. Simple as that.

Otherwise, they will ask for proof that you have renounced your British nationality before giving it to you.

 

Thanks a lot. That's pretty clear. I had a call with them and it sounded like all I'm doing is popping along to pick it up and in the follow-up email they said what I should bring (photo for the id card, fee, protective A4 thing so I don't bend/damage it, passport).

 

Do either of you (or anyone) know the exact German phrase they use for this renouncing of your previous nationality so I can look out for it?

 

A quick google translate offers me this: "Gib deine Staatsbürgerschaft auf".

[bramble 9,647]

9 minutes ago, Derek said:

Do either of you (or anyone) know the exact German phrase they use for this renouncing of your previous nationality so I can look out for it?

 

Entlassung aus der bisherigen Staatsbürgerschaft.