Brexit / Applying for German citizenship

[dj_jay_smith 3,449]

1 hour ago, Derek said:

 

Weirdly they didn't even ask me for any kind of school/university certificates from me. I had originals and copies with me ready. Maybe I'll get a follow-up communication telling me they forgot to ask. It was on my list of docs that I was required to bring. Like you said though Bavaria and Berlin ... different.

 

I believe that you only need school/university documents if you went to school in Germany.  As being schooled in Germany in German means you actually don't need the B1 certificate.

Some Beamters are better than others, so they know only to ask for what is needed for your case.  While others might just gather as much as possible, as it is anyway passed onto a specialist team (for me it was done by Regierungsbezirk Darmstadt)

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Berlinexpatnine said:

Every one of these posts gets me worried that I will be expected to provide all sorts of things that weren't requested in my initial meeting -- a "super" Meldebescheinigung going back perhaps 30 years and covering five Länder and five cities in my case, Steuerbescheide going back 10 years instead of the two I was asked for, confirmation letters from agencies like the Job Center that they say they are checking with anyway. It seems like they could suddenly want proof of de-registration of residence and ex-matriculation from every university I ever attended too. And will they also suddenly want all my foreign degrees translated if I hit the wrong person on the wrong day, and what else?

The decentralization of the naturalization process is really unnerving as we all compare notes like this. I know Bavaria's requirements aren't relevant to Berlin, and they can't spring new requirements on us at the last second, but still. On the other hand, the treatment we get from decentralized Germany by all accounts is kinder and gentler than the treatment my country gives to foreigners in a completely centralized system.

 

I don't believe that they need to go back through your entire history.  You need to have been permanent living in Germany for a minimum of 8 years  with no breaks (normally, although this can be less of course), so there is no need to look back further than this as it is just wasted effort.  For example:  It does not matter if there is a problem with your residency between 1995 and 1998 if everything since 2005 is in order.

 

 

 

 

[sos-the-rope 619]

14 hours ago, Derek said:

1. My Steuerbescheid letters for 2011-2017. I'd recently had a shredding session and figured I didn't need them. Wrong! I was lucky that I could drop into the Finanzamt and they wrre nice enough to print them out for me.

 

Wow. Never shred anything to do with taxes in Germany. To be safe, anything with money involving more than a couple of yoyos.

[Billybulldog 43]

@SOS, spot on there. I think I have German tax records back to the 80s. Thought I might need them if I one day go back to England. Yes, silly me! ?. Could be an expensive business if you can’t prove you have been paying tax somewhere. 

[sos-the-rope 619]

22 hours ago, Billybulldog said:

@SOS, spot on there. I think I have German tax records back to the 80s. Thought I might need them if I one day go back to England. Yes, silly me! ?. Could be an expensive business if you can’t prove you have been paying tax somewhere. 

 

Generally speaking I wasn't earning enough to pay much tax in the UK anyhow I don't mind paying back any pennies they decide to scrape together at any point. Certainly I never got enough to have e.g. a living from a pension in later life (what's "retirement"?!)...

 

 

[Derek 1,027]

Oh Shit !

[zwiebelfisch 7,067]

2 hours ago, Derek said:

Oh Shit !

 

Not exactly a surprise, this has been widely reported for a couple of days.

 

Whoever takes over, assuming as expected that it will be a brexiteer, is between a rock and a hard place.  They cannot go to the people because they know the tories will be wiped out (who wins is unclear with labour also expected to lose seats) but without doing so they have a minority government and an unpopular policy.

 

The only out I see for them is to run down the clock and hope parliament doesnt torpedo no deal in oct.

[Derek 1,027]

7 minutes ago, zwiebelfisch said:

The only out I see for them is to run down the clock and hope parliament doesnt torpedo no deal in oct.

 

That's my hope. Although that's in just over 5 months time and my beamter estimated 6 months for my einbürgerung decision. It'll be close.

[Chris Marston 61]

6 minutes ago, Derek said:

That's my hope. Although that's in just over 5 months time and my beamter estimated 6 months for my einbürgerung decision. It'll be close.

Given that you (will have) submitted your application before the current exit date at the end of October, you are on the safe side.

 

18 minutes ago, zwiebelfisch said:

The only out I see for them is to run down the clock and hope parliament doesnt torpedo no deal in oct.

This is going to be interesting. Brexit Reality TV continues.

[HEM 11,164]

28 minutes ago, zwiebelfisch said:

The only out I see for them is to run down the clock and hope parliament doesnt torpedo no deal in oct.

 

Or Boris will declare immediate No-Deal as of midnight to great acclamation.

[zwiebelfisch 7,067]

46 minutes ago, HEM said:

 

Or Boris will declare immediate No-Deal as of midnight to great acclamation.

 

At least it would be over.

[europaeuropa 121]

^ This all depends on the EU election results. If "the people" voted more for parties with a strong remain message, Boris can't really claim there is a current mandate for no deal (not that there ever was...)

[Chris Marston 61]

4 minutes ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

At least it would be over.

Nothing would be over. In a way, everything would be reset to the very low WTO terms for a start.

 

1 minute ago, europaeuropa said:

^ This all depends on the EU election results. If "the people" voted more for parties with a strong remain message, Boris can't really claim there is a current mandate for no deal (not that there ever was...)

I think there will be three-way split between no-deal Brexiteers, some kind of (fairly close alignment) deal pragmatics, and revoke remainers. "The people" don't speak with one voice.

[Derek 1,027]

1 hour ago, Chris Marston said:

Given that you (will have) submitted your application before the current exit date at the end of October, you are on the safe side.

 

It's not what the beamter said on Monday when I handed over my documents. He said that whether I get Dual citizenship depends not on the fact that I submitted now, it depends on when the application process is over and I'm accepted. Implying that date is the only important one. Of course you don't always get the same answer from different people. Nothing I can do now but wait.

[Chris Marston 61]

1 hour ago, Derek said:

 

It's not what the beamter said on Monday when I handed over my documents. He said that whether I get Dual citizenship depends not on the fact that I submitted now, it depends on when the application process is over and I'm accepted. Implying that date is the only important one. Of course you don't always get the same answer from different people. Nothing I can do now but wait.

 

Below is an official statement that your Beamter should have known:

Quote

What does Brexit change for people applying for naturalization?

In the event of an orderly Brexit, the Federal Government’s Brexit transition act lays down transitional provisions for British and German naturalization candidates who apply for naturalization in Germany or the UK before the end of the transition period (i.e. by 31 December 2020). They are to be allowed to keep their prior British or German citizenship even if the decision on their naturalization is issued after the end of the transition period and provided that all other naturalization requirements are met before the end of the transition period.

In the event of a disorderly Brexit, a similar rule will be put in place for naturalization candidates who apply before the date of the UK leaving the European Union. You will find individual details in the draft of the Act on Transition Provisions on Labour, Education, Health and Social Affairs, and Citizenship (german) on the website of the Federal Ministry of Labour and Social Affairs.
 

 

So, you are safe. I, on the other hand, am still waiting for my initial appointment.

 

ps. I like the term "disorderly Brexit". If there is one thing that "the Germans" dislike than it is disorderliness.

[EJM. 0]

Any transition period  only comes into force after a deal exit.

 

on handing in your papers you would have signed a document & recieved a piece of paper with the date you handed in documents; this is the important date not what date you get answer; so if you’ve already handed everything in, filled out & signed the documents required you are fine.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, HEM said:

 

Or Boris will declare immediate No-Deal as of midnight to great acclamation.

Boris Johnson has said the UK must leave the EU by the end of October with or without a deal, as he set out a hardline Brexit stance just hours after Theresa May resigned.Johnson is the favourite among Conservative members to take over as prime minister by the last week of July, but he will face competition from as many as 20 Conservative MPs vying for the top job.

[Derek 1,027]

22 minutes ago, Chris Marston said:

Below is an official statement that your Beamter should have known:

 

So, you are safe. I, on the other hand, am still waiting for my initial appointment.

 

That's great for me then, I can chill the funk out, and hopefully you can get your application done in time.

 

I was getting quite annoyed earlier with my damn krankenversicherung who I asked on Monday to send me a letter confirming I've been KV-insured for the last 8 years. It's Friday and I still don't have it. I'll chill now and won't stress it.

[Berlinexpatnine 28]

I’m submitting my naturalization application in Berlin, and as a freelancer, they want a statement from my tax advisor showing my monthly net income after social insurance contributions and taxes are subtracted out.

Are there any other freelancers on this board who have also had their tax advisor submit this statement? Both my tax advisor and my immigration lawyer are confused about it. My lawyer has been researching it but still doesn’t have clear answers for me yet. Anyway:

1.      For social insurance, it seems logical that they would want the health insurance costs of my entire family taken into account (because the entire family is applying for citizenship at once), not just my personal health insurance costs, which happen to be private.

2.      I only have private pension insurance contributions, so I have subtracted them out as well, but it’s also not really clear whether they need to be included. Certainly that would be subtracted out if it was the Deutsche Rentenversicherung. I’m not sure if my wife’s numbers (as a housewife) for private pension insurance should be included at all.

3.      I would assume that since they want taxes taken into account, they also want me to subtract out my income tax, but that wasn’t clear either.

Has anyone gotten clear answers to these questions?

[Derek 1,027]

49 minutes ago, Berlinexpatnine said:

I’m submitting my naturalization application in Berlin, and as a freelancer, they want a statement from my tax advisor showing my monthly net income after social insurance contributions and taxes are subtracted out.

Are there any other freelancers on this board who have also had their tax advisor submit this statement?

 

Not sure how useful my response will be, but don't want to ignore the question. I'm also a freelancer and told my Steuerberater that I needed a letter from him stating that he's been my tax advisor for (at least) the last 8 years, that I was working during those years, and that he confirm the numbers for the last 3 years. The problem (regarding how useful it is) is that I don't know if the Bürgeramt are happy enough with this letter yet. It would be more helpful if I'd already got my citizenship, proving it was enough.

 

Here's what was written with some X redactions:

 

Bestätigung zur Vorlage beim Bürgeramt Stadt X

 

Sehr geehrter Herr X,

 

zur Vorlage beim Bürgeramt der Stadt X für die Beantragung der doppelten Staatsbürgerschaft bestätigen wir Ihnen was folgt:

 

Wir erledigen für Sie seit dem Jahr X die steuerlichen Angelegenheiten. Ausweichlich der von uns erstellten Finanzbuchhaltung und der Gewinnermittlungen ergab sich für Ihre selbständige Tätigkeit als Informatiker jeweils ein Gewinn Pro Jahr zwischen € X und € Y.

 

Die Ergebnisse der letzten Jahre betrugen:

 

Gewinn 2016: € X

Gewinn 2017: € X

Gewinn 2018: € X (vorläufig)

 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

 

X

 

The numbers are gross rather than net of taxes or any other outgoings. Any typos or grammar errors are probably mine as I retyped it. As I say though, I've no idea if this is good enough. It's just what my tax advisor and myself came up with based on what the list of required documents said we needed. Besides, it's got the tax advisors contact info. They could get in touch if they felt like it. Considering that I also had to provide the yearly tax summary from the Finanzamt, I think the two together should be enough. I also gave my last 3 years tax returns which show taxes and outgoings (pension, insurances, etc).

[Billybulldog 43]

Yes. Here in Frankfurt my lady wrote:

 

Sehr geehrter ...

Wir bestaetigen Ihnen, dass Sie in den letzten sechs Monate Einkuenfte in Hoehe von rd TEUR ****** erzielt haben. Die Einkuenfte haben wir auf Basis der Jahreseinkuenfte von 2017 geschaetzt, da es auf Grund der von uns vorliegenden Information keine wesentlichen Veraenderungen bei der laufenden Einkuenfte gibt.

Die Einkommensteuererklaerung fuer 2017 wuerde von uns erstellt. Der Einkommensteuerbescheid liegt noch nicht vor. Die von uns ermittelten Einkuenfte betragen  gemaess der Einkommensteuererklaerung 2017 TEUR ****.

Fuer Fragen stehen wir gerne zu Verfuegung 

MfG

 

Hope that helps.