Brexit / Applying for German citizenship

[Feierabend 1,145]

I don't think it means perm. residence of the EU as a whole, but permanent residency of the country in which you are living, which is an automatic right for EU citizens who have lived continuously in the country for > 5 years. e.g. the Niederlassungserlaubnis here.

 

Hmm, I never thought about that. Googling brought me to this EU document on the law:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32003L0109

 

See article 14; it seems to provide a lot of rights, to what extent equivalent to full EU rights, not sure.

 

Maybe our non-EU forum members who have German permanent residency can enlighten us?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, fredg said:

What are people's opinions about citizenship vs EC permanent residence? 

 

The  EC permanent residence is for foreign nationals from third countries – as a british citizen you are not a foreign national from a third country. Not yet. 

 

http://www.bamf.de/EN/DasBAMF/Aufgaben/Daueraufenthalt/daueraufenthalt-node.html

 

 

[onemark 787]

@ fredg:

 

Citizenship lets you live, work anywhere in the EU and (in Germany) vote in EU, municipal and state and federal elections.

As a third-country national, you have no voting rights whatsoever.

Also, I think you're only allowed to live and work in Germany and not in any other EU country. (You would need to check that, though.)

 

[fredg 31]

Thanks for the answers.

You're right that not being a citizen deprives you of voting rights. The other questions are still less clear to me. 

The Bamf site says "The permanent residence permit can be obtained both by third-country nationals who live in Germany and by those from other states in the European Union". It might seem odd to get permanent residence when you are already an EU citizen, however I think I have heard that this is what some EU citizens have started doing in the UK. 

Whether this permanent residence gives you all the rights of freedom of movement you'd have as a German citizen, I'm not so sure. For example on the Bamf page it also says you still have to apply for a new residence permit if you come to Germany with a permanent residence permit from another EU country. "This residence permit will be granted to a third-country national who wishes to live in Germany for longer than three months. To obtain this, he or she must have a "permanent EC resident" title from another Member State of the European Union".

I also read somewhere that if you live outside of Germany for longer than 6 years, then your permanent residence permit expires.

So maybe citizenship is better. No doubt it is more solid. Who knows what rules may change in the future. 

 

 

[wien4ever 447]

As usual, the English BAMF webpage lacks complete clarity as to what the heck EC permanent residency means. I'm a bit unsure about it.

 

I think the 'permanent EC residence' for all intents and purposes, is probably like being an EU citizen without the voting rights. Thus, after getting it, you can move to another EU contry and gain permanent residency quickly and without 'reseting' the residency clock. For example, I was in Austria for 5 years, but then moved to Germany, thus, had my residency in Europe 'reset' by simply moving to another EU state (this never happens in the USA!). That is the lunacy of the EU for you. I've been in the EU for 10 years, but only in Germany for 5 years. Why am I not recognized for being in the EU for 10 years?

 

I'm not sure if my assumption is correct though, if your maintain your EC residency permit after moving around several EU countries? Suppose I move to 3 or 4 EU states in my lifetime, what happens? Do I still have EC residency? 

 

I plan to apply for the EC permanent residency, so I'll come back at some time and report back.

 

That reminds me, another thing I need to do is transfer my Rentenversicherung credits from Austria to Germany.

 

btw Austria is not in complete compliance with EU regulations - they are still fooling around with this red-white-red card nonsense in opposition to the Blue Card concept.

 

 

 

 

 

[fredg 31]

I get the feeling that if you had an EC permanent residence in Germany but then moved to France, then after 6 years your German residency would expire but you would now be eligible for a French one. I read that you can't apply for one while you are still in possession of one from another country. It does seem complicated and probably not intended as a way of moving permanently from one country to another.

[snowingagain 5,359]

Has anyone seen the stuff in the press about UK immigration giving long term EU residents a hard time about remaining after Brexit?

 

One thing I am curious about, is that while living in the UK if , say because you were non working spouse, you have not amassed a certain amount of NI contributions you were supposed to have taken out private health insurance.  

 

So this Dutch woman, after 30 years in the UK (freelancing but probably not earning enough), with UK a husband, and UK children is being told after Brexit she won't be entitled to live in the UK anymore.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/14/dutchwoman-resident-in-uk-for-30-years-may-have-to-leave-after-brexit

[LeonG 14,811]

29 minutes ago, snowingagain said:

Has anyone seen the stuff in the press about UK immigration giving long term EU residents a hard time about remaining after Brexit?

 

One thing I am curious about, is that while living in the UK if , say because you were non working spouse, you have not amassed a certain amount of NI contributions you were supposed to have taken out private health insurance.  

 

So this Dutch woman, after 30 years in the UK (freelancing but probably not earning enough), with UK a husband, and UK children is being told after Brexit she won't be entitled to live in the UK anymore.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/14/dutchwoman-resident-in-uk-for-30-years-may-have-to-leave-after-brexit

 

I thought they said they wanted to keep the freedom of movement and that people need not to worry.  In any case, if they start kicking people out, it will likely be on a case by case basis.  For example, does this Dutch woman qualify to apply for UK citizenship?  If not, does she qualify to apply for permanent residency in the UK?  If not, can her husband sponsor her?  Could she move with him to the Netherlands?  Or could she maybe more easily move with him to another EU country?

 

On 1/1/2017, 2:30:45, wien4ever said:

For example, I was in Austria for 5 years, but then moved to Germany, thus, had my residency in Europe 'reset' by simply moving to another EU state (this never happens in the USA!). That is the lunacy of the EU for you. I've been in the EU for 10 years, but only in Germany for 5 years. Why am I not recognized for being in the EU for 10 years?

 

Because the EU is not a country in itself, there is no EU permanent residency except to mean permanent residency in the separate countries of the EU.  Such as if you were to say N-American permanent residency meaning either permanent residency in the US or Canada.  Neither one gives you any right in the other in that case.

 

So with slightly different rules in each country, when you move between EU countries, you have to look into laws and regulations on each one which type of PR you have and for how long it allows you to leave before you lose it and whether it actually helps you getting any rights at all in your new EU country.

 

If you want EU something that actually gives you transferable rights, get an EU citizenship.

 

[Macca-bb 38]

Just received my TELC "Deutsch-Test für Zuwanderer" test results.   Managed to get B1 in every test (Listening/reading/Writing/Speaking).  Test was not as bad as I thought it would be.  I just need to pass the "Einbürgerung" test and then hopefully my German citizenship application will be accepted.

 

Then BREXshIT can do want it wants.  I know that UK passport holders in Germany will (hopefully) be safe, but by having dual nationality I will be on the safe side.

[loz_adele 840]

Same here. I handed my documents in early Jan. Just a question of waiting now. I wanted to have both to be on the safe side.

[RenegadeFurther 2,393]

15 hours ago, Macca-bb said:

 

Then BREXshIT can do want it wants.  I know that UK passport holders in Germany will (hopefully) be safe, but by having dual nationality I will be on the safe side.

Safe side? 

 

Nothing is guaranteed.  It is not even guaranteed that you will be allowed to keep both passports.

 

[Macca-bb 38]

You are completely correct nothing is safe.  But from past experience it is harder to remove rights already attained than it is to acquire them.  

[RenegadeFurther 2,393]

It could get really messy very quickly. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/16/eu-citizens-in-uk-could-face-deliberate-hostility-policy-after-brexit

 

The UK is already becoming more hostile to EU citizens, it is very possible the the EU might soon do the same.

 

 

[Krieg 15,038]

What is this "EC Permanent Resident" thing you are talking about?

I am a non-EU with a German PR. So is my wife and so is one of my kids (the other one is German). So I have an idea about how it works.

The PR status in Germany is called Niederlassungerlaubnis shorted as NE. It is meant for non-EUs and you can get it after 5 years in the country, shorten to 3 years if you are married to an EU citizen. You have more or less the same rights as a citizen except you can't vote. You have full access to the work market and social services and benefits and you can own property and you pay same taxes as everyone else.

The limitations are that it is valid only in Germany and you can't leave Germany for more than 90 days in a single trip or more than 180 days a year. You can get this values doubled with a special permit from the aliens office.

AFAIK EU citizens can't apply for NE status. What I assume it is going to happen after Brexit is that UK citizens will be non-EUs and they can apply to NE status and most probably the time you were already here should count towards the 5 years. The ones which have not reached the 5 years may get a non-NE permit but then this is more limiting and very bad if you need to work (Vorrangprinzip applies for non-NE permits, meaning the Job Center has to approve the job permit and Germans, EUs and NEs have priority, in reality no unskilled job gets approved).

[RenegadeFurther 2,393]

8 minutes ago, Krieg said:

What is this "EC Permanent Resident" thing you are talking about?
 

 

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/documents-formalities/eu-nationals-permanent-residence/index_en.htm

[Sir Percy B 1,309]

43 minutes ago, RenegadeFurther said:

 

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/documents-formalities/eu-nationals-permanent-residence/index_en.htm

 

It's called in German,  Bescheinigung über das Daueraufenthaltsrecht für Unionsbürger and cost €8.00, an interview/appointment is required at the Ausländerbehörde.

 

[RenegadeFurther 2,393]

32 minutes ago, Sir Percy B said:

 

It's called in German,  Bescheinigung über das Daueraufenthaltsrecht für Unionsbürger and cost €8.00, an interview/appointment is required at the Ausländerbehörde.

 

 

I already got one. All they asked for was a valid work permit. The rest they have in their computer.

[bramble 9,602]

8 hours ago, RenegadeFurther said:

Safe side? 

 

Nothing is guaranteed.  It is not even guaranteed that you will be allowed to keep both passports.

 

 

It's not about passports, it's about citizenship and once you've legally been granted citizenship they can't simply decide to take it away from you. Or do you mean the Brits after Brexit will make Brits by birth with dual naturalised German citizenship decide to choose? Brits have always been very liberal concerning dual citizenship so I think something much worse than Brexit will have to happen before either side will make you choose to stay Brit or choose the other. 

[cb6dba 7,318]

9 minutes ago, bramble said:

 

It's not about passports, it's about citizenship and once you've legally been granted citizenship they can't simply decide to take it away from you. Or do you mean the Brits after Brexit will make Brits by birth with dual naturalised German citizenship decide to choose? Brits have always been very liberal concerning dual citizenship so I think something much worse than Brexit will have to happen before either side will make you choose to stay Brit or choose the other. 

Very import point this.. Especially if you are thinking of applying, which if you haven't, you should.

I guess what is unclear is if either country can force you to give up the other citizenship after the UK leaves as the rules change.

Then again, maybe they will still allow dual nationality afterwards, depends on how the negotiations go I expect.

 

 

 

[Jannerman 7]

One question for the Brexit experts. I'm British (British passport) and I've been in Germany for 14 years or so. My wife is now applying for a German passport and I'm wondering if this will save my neck if things turn sour here for British expats.