Unemployment benefits

58 posts in this topic

My friend was terminated immediately with no term and no money .

The second day after the termination he went and registered at the Arbeits Agentur .

There he got instructions how to do the Antrag online, and the Arbeitsbescheiningung that he sent to the employer immediately .

So at this moment you are saying that until he decides if he accepts or contests the termination, the employer will not send him back the Arbeitsbescheinigung

and he can not receive any unemployment ?

This looks highly unfair and illogical, he was terminated by his employer without any income, and his employer decides if he gets unemployment ?

 

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9 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

My friend was terminated immediately with no term and no money .

 

You told us something different before:

 

On 24.7.2018, 21:42:20, bbogdanmircea said:

Kündigen wir ... fristlos, hilfsweise ordentlich zu nächsten Kündigungstermin : 31.10.2018 

 

What can you understand from this, what type of Kündigung is this ? And what is the meaning of the date ?

 

(Emphasis from me)

 

Sorry but giving conflicting information does no good. 

 

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So at this moment you are saying that until he decides if he accepts or contests the termination, the employer will not send him back the Arbeitsbescheinigung and he can not receive any unemployment ?

 

He can not receive "unemployment" at all – you are talking about unemployment MONEY (ALG1). And he only can receive unemployment money if he is unemployed. If he fights his termination and the contract runs until October 31, he's not unemployed before November, 01.

 

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This looks highly unfair and illogical, he was terminated by his employer without any income, and his employer decides if he gets unemployment ?

 

 

You don't seem to grasp it. If your friend decides to fight the immediate termination (termination without notice), the contract runs (at least) until October 31. 

 

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A good strategy is to try and get the AA to pressure the employer to fill out the online/e version of the Arbeitsbescheinigung. They will be reluctant to get off their kiesters and call/email but one has to try and get them on your side.

Unfortunately the (ex) employee has very little pull in this situation. If he or she did something to anger the employer, I guess they could delay filling out the form. That is not right and there is certainly some rule that an employer has to fill it out in a certain number of work days, but an ex employee has very little chance of enforcing any such rule.

Unions/Work Councils etc can help in such situations if the employer works somewhere that is organized. Good reason to look for work where you have some support.

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Just now, mako1 said:

 ... but an ex employee has very little chance of enforcing any such rule.

 

A former employee has a very good chance of forcing the issue of the employment certificate (e.g. by setting a written deadline with an appropriate (!) deadline, 2 or even 4 weeks are usual) and informing the Federal Employment Agency if this does not lead to success. The Federal Agency can then take action against the employer).

 

But the employer is not obliged to issue the employment certificate within a few days and it must of course also be clear for how long the employment certificate should be valid.

 

bbogdanmircea is just panicking for no reason. 

 

 

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Thanks, no reason being no income for some time ? Seems like a good reason for panicking to me .

Anyway thanks, how can that deadline be set ?

Just by sending a letter to the employer and ask them kindly to send the A...nigung until some date ?

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3 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Thanks, no reason being no income for some time ?

 

Hard to understand you are.

 

3 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Seems like a good reason for panicking to me .

Anyway thanks, how can that deadline be set ?

 

By writing a letter – after an appropriate amount of time. Once again: the employer is not obliged to issue the employment certificate within only a few days and the employer needs to know for how long the employment certificate should be valid – October 31 or this week.

 

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9 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Thanks, no reason being no income for some time ?

 

I know you and your friend are under stress and this does not help, but this is why adult people have plans for these situations, you should never live salary to salary with zero savings.   I know you might not like this comment, but at least you and your friend will learn a lot from all what it is happening right now to you.

 

P.S., The Agentur fur Arbeit can't give you any unemployment money if you are not yet unemployed,  Simple as that.   And they will not calculate anything at the moment.  If you need a rough estimation in order to start adjusting your lifestyle then think you will get around 60% of your current net income.

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don't panic is always good advice, and avoiding stupid moral lessons from the peanut gallery also.

 

The employer will eventually issue the necessary documentation to avoid any legal problems. Sending them a letter is an idea but I am not sure that it has any legal basis. We can stamp our little feet all we want and issue ultimatums, in the end we are just foreigners here to keep wages down. They will issue the Arbeitsbescheinigung in their own sweet time.

Talk to the AA, they will have heard similar stories and maybe give some advice. They can also tell you approximately when the document needs to be in their hands to get the friend the first ALG allowance. You don't apply for ALG on monday and get a check on tuesday, it comes at the end or beginning of the next month. So there is time.

 

There is a slight possibility of an advance if it appears the the paperwork will take a long time. Only under certain conditions. The time invested to get this passed would definitely be better spent looking for new work.

 

https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/arbeitslos-arbeit-finden/anspruch-hoehe-dauer-arbeitslosengeld

Einen Vorschuss können Sie erhalten, wenn Ihre Antragsunterlagen oder sonstige Gründe eine abschließende Entscheidung noch nicht zulassen. Voraussetzung dafür ist:

  • Sie haben grundsätzlich Anspruch auf Leistungen.
  • Es dauert voraussichtlich noch längere Zeit, bis die tatsächliche Höhe der Leistungen festgesetzt werden kann.

Ist noch unklar, ob Sie Anspruch auf Leistungen haben, kann auch eine vorläufige Entscheidung getroffen werden.

 

If your friend worked 5 years, he or she should get 1 year ALG1 (depending upon age) if he or she does not get a sperrzeit (fired for cause, doesn't look for work...).

They paid into the fund and they have the right, under certain conditions, to ALG1. The employer has little to do with it, other than throwing a wrench in the works at the start.

patience grasshopper

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The only thing my friend learned is that even if you are done an injustice by your employer and get fired, your chance of defending that right is proportional to the money you are willing to spend for lawyers .

And the money you paid for unemployment during 5 years of hard work will be given to you only if the employer that had fired you allows it .

All the friends of my friend could not believe that this is possible in Germany, that you have strong rights as an employee, it seems it's not that way really .

I guess the lesson is that whatever the employer does to you, you should accept it or quit, there is no middle way .

 

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Depends on the situation but - speaking as one who is not employed - you would indeed often be taking a big leap of faith to assume an employer is on your side.   They are your employer, nothing more.    The previous poster got it right.  Migrant employees also take bigger risks than most - but that often only becomes clear when a problem arises.   (I'd think long and hard about employment as a foreigner abroad now as employment rights and security reduce and there's so many more workers competing for jobs - it's not like 1990, or even 2000, now).

 

I believe someone on the other thread about ALG and this certificate said it's possible to proceed with the claim anyway.  Might be worth reading that.

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36 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

I guess the lesson is that whatever the employer does to you, you should accept it or quit, there is no middle way .

 

There is. But it takes a bit more than self-pity, stamping with the foot, listen to the irrelevant views of friends of friends and making up bs like this:

 

"And the money you paid for unemployment during 5 years of hard work will be given to you only if the employer that had fired you allows it ."

 

That's complete nonsense. You were told the way of proceeding multiple times now but you prefer to ignore it. This is a self-chosen destiny. Good luck anyway, I'm out. 

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1 hour ago, bbogdanmircea said:

The only thing my friend learned is that even if you are done an injustice by your employer and get fired, your chance of defending that right is proportional to the money you are willing to spend for lawyers .

 

This is very unfair with the country.   Actually the reason why you have to pay for your own lawyer in a employee-vs-employer case even if you win is precisely to avoid a David vs Goliath fight.   If the winner could transfer the lawyer fees to the other party in this case then the corporations could bring all the big guns and delay the case until you are totally bankrupt.   Like in the USA, where in most cases you can't even think in suing a corporation.    And then the system allows you to buy lawyer insurance for a minimal cost, a good one costs 200 EUR a year, and then you could sue your ex-employer for 150 EUR total if you choose one of their lawyers or 300 EUR total if you choose the lawyer.

 

The lawyer fees are defined by the government and they are proportional to your income, so everyone can in theory afford a lawyer, but they are not cheap.   And if you really can't afford the lawyer then the government pay one for you.  

 

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And the money you paid for unemployment during 5 years of hard work will be given to you only if the employer that had fired you allows it .

 

Your ex-employer has nothing to do with this.   The problem is you want your unemployment money now but the person is not yet unemployed.   

 

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All the friends of my friend could not believe that this is possible in Germany, that you have strong rights as an employee, it seems it's not that way really .

 

Germany has very strong employee rights, they have been weakened lately but they are still very strong compared to other countries.

 

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I guess the lesson is that whatever the employer does to you, you should accept it or quit, there is no middle way .

 

 

That has not been my experience, but I can't talk for everyone.

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1 hour ago, bbogdanmircea said:

My friend was terminated immediately with no term and no money .

The second day after the termination he went and registered at the Arbeits Agentur .

There he got instructions how to do the Antrag online, and the Arbeitsbescheiningung that he sent to the employer immediately .

 

That is good because 'your friend'  remains in compliance with their legal obligation to notify the AfA within 3 work days of their being made aware of the imminent threat of their becoming unemployed as of the end of October.

 

The AfA cannot process applications for ALG I prior to the date an applicant actually is unemployed which, in the case of 'your friend' would be 01 November. 

 

1 hour ago, bbogdanmircea said:

So at this moment you are saying that until he decides if he accepts or contests the termination, the employer will not send him back the Arbeitsbescheinigung and he can not receive any unemployment ?

 

IF 'your friend' chooses to accept the fristlos element of their Kündigung and signs a letter of acceptance accordingly they will then be considered by the AfA to have voluntarily become unemployed and therefore their application for ALG I will be subjected to a Sperrzeit of 12 weeks. IF 'your friend' was reckless enough to do that then it would leave them without income for 3 months !!

 

Therefore it is important that you and 'your friend' understand that the AfA would expect anyone in their situation (5 years continuous employment with the same employer) to take all reasonable measures to defend their right to continue in their employment and challenge both the fristlos aspect and, unless there were acceptable legal grounds for it, the Kündigung notice altogether.

 

1 hour ago, bbogdanmircea said:

This looks highly unfair and illogical, he was terminated by his employer without any income, and his employer decides if he gets unemployment ?

 

Nobody here can say whether it may or may not be fair since we obviously don't know the employer's side of the story. If you would take a step back and slowly reconsider most of the points other posters have tried patiently to explain to you, you might begin to realize it is a very logical process.

 

Unless he panicks and does something reckless or fails in his duty to protect his rights, he will have an income until the end of his notice period. He will then be eligible for ALG I at approx 60% of his last gross income.

 

His employer has zero possibility of deciding whther or when he becomes eligible to receive unemployment benefit - so please STOP making up such nonsense. It is pure bollox!!

 

Also, as I had patiently tried explaining to you in several posts on the other thread where you were continuosly repeating excuses as to why you thought it would be too expensive to lawyer up and challenge 2 'unfair' warnings (Abmahnungen), the costs of not doing so could well prove to be far higher than any alternative.

 

He might be risking a few hundred Euros but that should be much less than the loss of 3 x his gross monthly income or even 3x 60% of the same (if he rolls over passively and accepts being fired without notice) but, (unless he had done something drastic to warrant his being fired), he may well be awarded compensation equal to what he should have been paid for as long as the case takes to settle plus his lawyer nd court costs.

 

For your own, 'your friends' and all of our sakes, please get off both your arses and make an appointment with a Fachanwalt für Arbeitsrecht ASAP!!

 

Thank you!

 

2B

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Just as a note, my friend went to a lawyer the day he received the first warning .

For a hefty fee the lawyer contested the warning, but still he received no answer from the employer which continued with the termination 2 weeks after .

You say it's the duty of my friend to contest the termination, but for that duty his lawyer is asking for even a heftier amount . Seems more like a duty to get the lawyer rich . I know, he didn't have legal insurance you will say, but for me it looks like a situation with no exit for somebody without savings and getting fired .

I'm looking just for help to understand this situation and don't wish anybody to be in the same ...

 

Just to make sure I understand correctly, if he challenges the termination in court he will receive salary until the day of the termination ? Why ? 

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None of this is the fault of any lawyer though.   They have a living to earn (as self-employed businesses often, not relying on an employer).   That's displacement thinking, not relevant, the situation and solution here is down to the employer.     Sure, few of us like to put savings money aside (or doing so and then have it swallowed in fees) or taking out insurance policies for rainy days but sometimes it rains :angry:.   It's just self-management, self-protection for us and our families according to situ.   And quite possibly a better option than trusting an employer these days.

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1 hour ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Just as a note, my friend went to a lawyer the day he received the first warning .

For a hefty fee the lawyer contested the warning, but still he received no answer from the employer which continued with the termination 2 weeks after .

 

Then, (presuming the veracity of your assertion that these warnings were unjustified), provided he gave the lawyer a Mandate to represent him his lawyer should automatically be continuing to press the employer to withdraw the first warning as well as contesting the employers decsion to issue that termination notice since those two factors are directly connected.

 

OTOH if your friend was affected by your excess anxiety over imagined legal costs and thereby chose only to instruct the lawyer to take limited action, (such as give one advisory consultation, study the papers wrt his case and write a letter to the employer to contest the warning), he may well have agreed to pay at a much higher rate than neccesary for what may have turned out to be an insufficient performance.

 

"Penny wise - Pound foolish!" - British proverb!

 

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You say it's the duty of my friend to contest the termination, but for that duty his lawyer is asking for even a heftier amount . Seems more like a duty to get the lawyer rich . I know, he didn't have legal insurance you will say, but for me it looks like a situation with no exit for somebody without savings and getting fired .

I'm looking just for help to understand this situation and don't wish anybody to be in the same ...

 

As long as you insist on wilfully misinterpreting every sentence other people say to you and deliberately misquoting them I have very little expectation that you're ever going to be capable of understanding this, or any other similar German legal, situation.

 

FYI; I did not  say it's the duty of your friend to contest the termination. I did say ...

that the AfA would expect anyone in their situation (5 years continuous employment with the same employer) to take all reasonable measures to defend their right to continue in their employment and challenge both the fristlos aspect and, unless there were acceptable legal grounds for it, the Kündigung notice altogether.

 

We have wasted enough time discussing he law on lawyers fees You persist in choosing to misunderstand or misinterpret the choices of options which the law leaves to the discretion of the informed client. 

 

It is in fact quite possible for an employee to represent themself in court up to the first instance under German Arbeitsrecht.

 

Whether that would be wise or not would depend on their individual competence in German legalese and their knowledge of the law and legal processes.

 

Neither the courts nor the AfA will have any interest in excuses (because they are definitely not valid arguments) which are based on a fear of risk of 'hefty' fees - especially not if posed by someone who has been earning 5K € brutto for 5 years.

 

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Just to make sure I understand correctly, if he challenges the termination in court he will receive salary until the day of the termination ? Why ? 

 

 

 

Once again you have chosen to misinterpret my statements.

 

This is an irritating habit which REALLY pisses me off no fucking end!

 

3 hours ago, 2B_orNot2B said:

(unless he had done something drastic to warrant his being fired), he may well be awarded compensation equal to what he should have been paid for as long as the case takes to settle plus his lawyer and court costs.

 

1 hour ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Why ? 

 

If you're too lazy to read the multiple links to case law examples and articles by lawyers which are plentifully distrubuted on all the scores of thread topics posted in TT over the last 16 years on exactly this subject then I don't see any reason why I should waste my own time teaching you German employment law 101!

 

At the very least you should go and study with extreme care all the answers you've been given in the threads you've posted on.

 

2B

 

PS:

I recommend you do NOT direct any further questions to me since, should I choose to answer, it is very unlikely to be of help to you.

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Unless he panicks and does something reckless or fails in his duty to protect his rights, he will have an income until the end of his notice period. 

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Please feel free to delete any miss quotes and wrong facts that I added .

I am just trying to understand this situation, I will try to read more and write less in the future, Toytown forum has been a great support during this

period .

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Nobody wants to ignore you or delete you or whatever.  It sounds like you are being a great help to your friend which is very laudable, many people would like a friend like you :).   I think the thing is to focus on the people who are a barrier to him and sort all that out.  We know why people vent on lawyers but that is one thing that won't help him.  We also know that people give out various information, some is not correct, but quite a lot is but only for a specific case.

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