Germanwings Flight 9525 crashes in French Alps

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Bureaucrats and bureaucratic measures can't avoid such catastrophes.

 

Back in 1982 a pilot of an Japanese airplane ( Japan Airlines Flight 350) who wasn't a mental patient and who, before, never had shown any kind of suspicious behaviour , turned his plane down by activating the thrust reverses while the plane was still in air. And of course, this pilot wasn't alone, but his co pilot and the flight engineer in the cabin couldn't prevent the crash which caused many deaths. The pilot survived and never faced charges since he was, afterwards, declared mentally ill.

 

People can have serious mental problems without anybody in their surrounding realizing this. And mental problems, changes in character and behaviour, can appear from one day to another.Tomorrow morning any of us could wake up and be a psychotic.

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He was a psychopath on the loose and should have been locked away in a mental institution instead of on that plane on Tuesday.

 

The mental health vetting of this pilot was obviously ineffective. It's a real problem in the industry where flight doctors are suppose to probe for mental problems on routine examinations of pilots at the start of employment and periodically afterwards, but it's cursory at best. Pilots are afraid to divulge information regarding mental health issues because of concerns about repercussions for their license. There's also still a lot of stigma attached to mental illness and treatment of mental illnesses when it's another human condition that if left untreated or improperly treated it can become terminal.

 

If airlines try harder to prevent pilots with significant medical health issues from flying, there's probably always going to be at least one nutcase that slip through the system.

 

I can see how severe mental health issues can go undetected working on airlines. How much interaction and conversation are they having in the cockpit when they know it's being recorded. It's probably mostly business and during the business interaction you can't tell the depth of the psychological impairment, unless the person is behaving really, really bizarre.

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But it's really not about those cases where the perpetrator hid their illness, and I would argue that these are very few. Friends, family and co-workers often reveal after-the-fact that there was something about the person that was just not right or warning signs leading up to the act.

Andreas L. did not hide his illness rather Lufthansa/Germanwings let him "slip through the safety net" as Lufthansa Group CEO Carsten Spohr himself said. And what about others like his girlfriend and psychiatrists who MUST have know about his condition, meds and what effect the split could have on him??

 

Is it asking or expecting too much of the industry to generally exclude those who have known mental health issues?

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But it's really not about those cases where the perpetrator hid their illness, and I would argue that these are very few. Friends, family and co-workers often reveal after-the-fact that there was something about the person that was just not right or warning signs leading up to the act.

Andreas L. did not hide his illness rather Lufthansa/Germanwings let him "slip through the safety net" as Lufthansa Group CEO Carsten Spohr himself said.

 

Is it asking or expecting too much of the industry to generally exclude those who have a known history of mental health issues?

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Yeah, hindsight is always 20/20.

 

This is where it get's a little tricky, some people who appear odd are not mentally ill,they may be just socially awkward, socially inept, or eccentric.

 

Certainly family, friends, and co-workers should not be the ones responsible for reporting possible mental illness to employees for them to take some action. Suppose it's an employee or friend who is being vindictive? This leaves a wide gap.

 

What if the person is a loner or antisocial then there may not be any associate to witness the behaviors?

 

I know people that I consider somewhat strange, but they are not mental ill. If they were working for the airline would I report them, no.

 

The industry needs to develop and implement systemic rigorous protocols and administrative procedures to address mental illness in their workforce.

 

A.L. had a long history of mental illness, however depression doesn't have to be long-term it can be episodic or even acute. So if a pilot has a bout of depression does it mean he should automatically lose his job or career? Perhaps they can be given sick leave and then return and fly a desk until they are certain the person mental health condition is stabilized.

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Yeah, hindsight is always 20/20.

 

This is where it get's a little tricky, some people who appear odd are not mentally ill,they may be just socially awkward, socially inept, or eccentric. Certainly family, friends, and co-workers should not be the ones responsible for reporting possible mental illness to employees for them to take some action. This leaves a wide gap. What if the person is a loner or antisocial then there may not be any associate to witness the behaviors.

I know people that I consider somewhat strange, but they are not mental ill. If they were working for the airline would I report them, no.

Indeed, I fully agree and would also never report unless it went over the line.

 

 

A.L. had a long history of mental illness, however depression doesn't have to be long-term it can be episodic or even acute. So if a pilot has a bout of depression does it mean he should automatically lose his job or career? Perhaps they can be given sick leave and then return and fly a desk until they are certain the person mental health condition is stabilized.

 

Here I must digress, at least in the case of pilots. I don't think he ever should have gotten the job after his first "episode" at the beginning of his training in 2006.

 

Flight Attendant with "issues" well....ok maybe. How much trouble can he cause pouring tomato juices???

Captain/Copilot with same issues at the helm??? Nein Danke!

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Indeed, I fully agree and would also never report unless it went over the line.

 

Here I must digress, at least in the case of pilots. I don't think he ever should have gotten the job after his "episode" at the beginning of his training in 2006.

 

Flight Attendant with "issues" well....ok maybe. How much trouble can he cause pouring tomato juices???

Captain/Copilot with same issues at the helm??? Nein Danke!

 

Have you ever been at 38,000 feet with an aggressive, rude, and hostile flight attendant on a 10 hour flight? I have and it's not pleasant. There shouldn't be two different standards, all mentally ill airline workers need to be off the planes. How do you know if that flight attendant isn't going to sabotage the plane?

 

Regarding, A.L. not getting the job, we all know that now he should not have been at the airline that day.

 

What concerns me is I have to take a flight in a few weeks to Chicago and then on to Vancouver out of Frankfurt and back, I don't know what the mental health status of those pilots will be and maybe the airline won't know either, but I will listen closely when they do their flight briefing and if they sound cheery and personable, I'll rest a little easier.

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Can someone please un red post 325 my contacts are a little blurry and I red it by mistake. Thanks.

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What is so baffling about a pilot going for pee mid-flight? Maybe he was running late for the flight (or caught up with other stuff) that prevented him from taking a quick trip to the loo, and was bursting with a full bladder by the time they took off. Could be a thousand other reasons!

 

Not every thing is a conspiracy.

 

Anyway, it is confirmed now that he had a major depressive episode in the past, however passed his second screening to check his capability to fly when he re-joined. Very hard to comprehend what were his thoughts just before he started the descend, chances are he had absolutely no ability to process what he was doing or why he was doing. He was a broken person.

 

I can already foresee that it may become illegal for humans to fly planes in far future. And it should, humans are too unpredictable and prone to make errors.

 

A pilot is the last person who i want to be either running late or having a full bladder at take off. Maybe you are not aware of, but in Airforce, they donot let you fly a fighter aircraft if you even had a fight at home or are having any kind of anxiety or stress. If he is an Air ambulance pilot or an air taxi i can understand that he has to fly at short notice - we had a time line of half an hour for pilot of air taxi to reach the aircraft. But for a scheduled flight, he better starts 3 hour before and be relaxed after he has checked in the roster.

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The discussion about the pilot should have urinated before he got on the plane is ludicrous. He was an adult and he should decide when he needed to relieve his bladder or bowels. Let's not blame a victim, he was doing his job and had to go to the bathroom there is no harm in that unless you're leaving a psychopath at the controls and how would he had known that after all the airline let him on the plane.

 

If A.L. didn't have the opportunity on that flight, it may have been the next flight he flew. Who knows.

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Doesn't seem to me that it would have required much checking of this co-pilot's medical records and condition to establish his unfitness for flying duties. From what I understand airline pilots and nuclear weapon launch officers are the most closely checked vocational people medically and psychologically.

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As a Father of four children, I've always been able to detect "any" change from the norm. When they were sick, they went to the doctor. I have one son that has already had thirteen brain surgeries. As a parent, I think you should be able to sense any change in your children. Do you think his parents had absolutely no idea of his problem, and also knowing he is flying innocent people all over Europe? Should they have in good conscious notified anyone? Did his doctor have an obligation beyond the patient privacy law? I think so. But it boils down to the people that were closest to him. I don't believe anyone can be an actor for this long without detection. We will see what turns out, but I firmly believe many people knew and didn't come forward. The amount of mourning family members and friends is huge and I join them in their pain.

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Here are some thoughts that went through my head last night.

 

There has been a lot of discussion since last Tuesday about how something like this should not have happened and how it could be avoided in the future. Everywhere I look, I’ve read about who is to blame, is it the company, the HR department of the company, the doctors, his friends and family, the list goes on and I’ve been wondering what part we play in this.

 

As the consumer, we demand cheaper and cheaper flights, airlines are competing with each other and have to reduce costs in every area, and I was thinking, is this the result? People have said that pilots should be there 3 hours before a flight, should go through rigorous tests, but that all costs money. We want high standards, but are we, the flyer, willing to pay for it.

 

I don’t know what the answer is but I’m flying to Ireland next Wednesday and I’m happy I found a reasonable price, a price that is quite a lot less than I used to pay back in the 1980s.

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As a Father of four children, I've always been able to detect "any" change from the norm. When they were sick, they went to the doctor. I have one son that has already had thirteen brain surgeries. As a parent, I think you should be able to sense any change in your children. Do you think his parents had absolutely no idea of his problem, and also knowing he is flying innocent people all over Europe? Should they have in good conscious notified anyone? Did his doctor have an obligation beyond the patient privacy law? I think so. But it boils down to the people that were closest to him. I don't believe anyone can be an actor for this long without detection. We will see what turns out, but I firmly believe many people knew and didn't come forward. The amount of mourning family members and friends is huge and I join them in their pain.

 

Exactly! I mean the reports are all indicating there were many many warning signs of his erratic, unstable behavior before, during and after the act.

Perhaps to the outside observer he was able to hide his illness, but not to those closest to him. He even said what he was planning to do.

Girlfriends, Doctors, Co-Workers and others opted to turn a blind eye.

 

Can we blame them?? I dunno, how would you/I react under the same circumstances? Who would I alert??

 

 

'I'm planning a heinous act that will be remembered forever': Killer pilot's ex-girlfriend says he shared chilling prophecy before Alps crash and woke up from nightmares shouting 'we're going down' ominously told her last year: ‘One day I will do something that will change the whole system, and then all will know my name and remember it.’ When she heard about the crash she remembered Lubitz’s menacing prophecy. ‘I never knew what he meant, but now it makes sense,’

http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz3Vf5nfqHP

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I think mental illness is still a vey taboo subject amongst traditional German families. From my husband's experience of depression, there certainly is a great deal of blind eye turning by doctors and family. I remember my husband telling his mother that he was taking anti-depressants and she almost collapsed in horror yelling that it's all nonsense and that he doesn't have depression. Hiding such illness wouldn't be too difficult from family if they are traditional in their views.

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The torn-up medical certs show how antiquated that system is. I've torn up certs myself, I don't think that's a problem. If I go on a Monday, the doc could give me a cert until Wednesday and another one for Thu and Fri, if I feel well enough I tear up the second one and go to work on Thursday. But if someone has a stash of certs so they can take time off whenever they want (not saying that happened here, I don't know), that seems like an abuse or at least misuse of the system.

 

But when I get the certs and I'm cycling to the health insurance office or the post office, then I feel like I'm magically transported back to the 19th Century. Surely they could use some sort of electronic communication that would be faster and more reliable than me and my bicycle? If the health insurer had automatic notification of certs where someone is not taking time off work, maybe that could be flagged to the doctor and/or employer.

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Yes -- the Daily Mail article seems to have added some fictional elements to the original Bild article. Even the Guardian article quoted in my post above says "Bild reports" (sorry -- link is now fixed!)

 

There isn't much to go on here... all hearsay. As others have said, it's really really hard to know what is going on deep down inside another person. I know people who have committed suicide out of the blue and everyone said "I would never have guessed". They gave no clues whatsoever. I don't know anyone who took others down with them, though. Even if he suffered from depression -- mass murder is certainly not associated with that diagnosis. Suicide, maybe but not murder. So I don't think a depression diagnosis or sick note would in any way lead to the suspicion that this guy had such a dire end planned.

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Depression, mixed with narcissism and possibly something else, yes, I can see it. To go down in a blaze of glory would suit some dysfunctional personalities.

 

As for this being a German problem, I don't think so. I have an aunt in Ireland who is obviously suffering from depression, but my Mother's reaction is always that she should pull herself together and her doctors are doing precious little. I've been discussing this for the past year with my Mother (her sister) trying to get her to understand what's going on, but she just can't and I don't think she's the only one.

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