Germanwings Flight 9525 crashes in French Alps

520 posts in this topic

 

This is why I'm wondering if it was premeditated. He couldn't possibly have known the captain would go for a pee, or when, or where. Over the mountains was of course perfect -- be he (co-pilot) couldn't possibly have planned it. The timing was everything.

 

I have flown a lot and i can say most of the time as soon as the seatbelt sign is of one of the pilots come out for a pee..

I was also told that many pilots on long haul flights take pills to stay awake, some are even alcoholic..they should have a blood test before they fly IMO

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Maybe they try to use the restrooms early, before a line builds up which would require them to be out of cockpit for even longer?

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In hindsight everything becomes clear. The Copilot was already showing signs of mental illness, depression DURING THE TRAINING and was required to interrupt/withdraw from the program for 6 months!! He was in long-term treatment for this and his Pilot License and file listed this limitation.

 

It just boggles the mind... WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKING ALLOWING HIM TO FLY???

 

There are several problems with this, most obviously that you are making mental illness a millstone around someones neck. Obviously that means prospective pilots will do there utmost to hide any signs of depression or other problems which is exactly the opposite of what you want.

 

What we should have is a system of evaluating, treating and monitoring people. Which, not surprisingly we have and it works exceptionally well. If this is eventually proven to be a case of suicide by someone who was mentally unstable then we can consider whether it was a failure of the medical system and/or policies. Until then we should be very careful about panic responses. After all that is why the door was locked in the first place, because people freaked out about terrorists smuggling over 100ml of toothpaste onto a plane and then attacking the pilots with it.

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It just boggles the mind... WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKING ALLOWING HIM TO FLY???

1 in 4 people will suffer mental illness in their lives....pilots I suspect more often due to job stress.

 

There are 130,000 commercial pilots in the world.

 

You wanna ground all the ones that have had an episode of mental illness? Get real. That is probably 30%+ of the people flying you around.

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1 in 4 people will suffer mental illness in their lives....pilots I suspect more often due to job stress.

 

There are 130,000 commercial pilots in the world.

 

You wanna ground all the ones that have had an episode of mental illness? Get real. That is probably 30%+ of the people flying you around.

 

That maybe the case, but IMO and at all time someone else should be in the cockpit if one of the pilots have to leave, should be compulsory and yes they should pee before they start to fly and not just after take-off

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Now we will see the "2 in the cabin" rule. And it's just a matter of time until that must be replaced by another tool, since why should this prevent a suicidal act?

 

It's a bit ironic , or sarcastic but : If the passenger checks at US airports would have been done correctly with skilled (and present ) staff and not the sloppy US way of "cheap is my friend" there would have been no 9/11. And without 9/11 there would have been no locked doors on that flight.

 

Or , in other words: You can't eliminate every risk by imposing more and more checks and controls. Checks and controls only force people to find ways to avoid them. Just a matter of time. Similar to computer/Internet safety.

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And without 9/11 there would have been no locked doors on that flight.

 

Exactly - Bin L. will be laughing in his watery grave.

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Taking a plane load with you. Not cool. Seriously not cool. How can you be so mentally fucked up as to think 150 people you don't even know deserve to die with you.

 

The morning news interviewed a psychiatrist who enlarged on this a bit, and I agree with him:

Basically, there's running amok (aka going postal, German: Amok laufen) where a person focuses on the killing of others as a sort of punishment for their grievances. The own death just follows from this murderous deed - it is planned or permitted, but not the main point of the entire thing.

 

Then there is murder-suicide (German: erweiterter Selbstmord), where the focus is on killing oneself, but others are intentionally taken along for various reasons like:

- taking along children etc. so they would not be left behind alone (how considerate :( )

- taking along people the suicidee does not want to share (ex-partner, kids in custody battle)

- suicide pact

- making an extreme point / others even more sorrow / more attention (the psychiatrist felt this could have been the case here)

 

In most of the cases above, he thinks there was an underlying longterm problem that needed a trigger. In many cases, a (at least perceived) deep personal injury (narcississtic injury) like a relationship breakup / firing /lost court case could be one.

(There is a rumor of a recent breakup in this case.)

Once the suicide has been decided on, the person actually becomes less moody and more relaxed in the last days before it happens (the case of a German pro soccer player was quoted here, I forget the name).

The suicidee doesn't need to *exactly* to plan when and where it happens. He (she) is ready for it, and when a good opportunity comes up (pilot leaves the cockpit just when the plane reaches the Alps), it happens. :(

 

EDIT: Answer to Beuel below, as I hit the posting quota:

Probably NOT medication. I'm quite familiar with the FAA and JAA medical requirements - they do a lot of medication and drug testing at the yearly physical, and ask about it, too.

From what I hear/read from commercial pilots, the implicit pressure is NOT to take any forbidden medication including possibly needed antidepressants.

Alternatively, they might stop medication 4-6 before the physical to clear their system. That time is enough to drop back into the bad mental place. :(

 

tl;dnr : An asshole made his suicide more spectacular by killing 150 innocent people he had never met. *anger*

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Or maybe his medication screwed up his brain and he didn't really do it on purpose. We will never know, and if it did, I am pretty sure they won't tell.

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That maybe the case, but IMO and at all time someone else should be in the cockpit if one of the pilots have to leave, should be compulsory and yes they should pee before they start to fly and not just after take-off

Just bear in mind - mathematically 2 in the cockpit actually DOUBLES your chance of having a suicidal person up front. In the USA they have a 2 warm seats rule - but that is so the #2 can monitor other people coming through that secure door.

 

So for instance, under the current European rules the pilots are swapping in-and-out for a pee break using the PIN code on the door. You now want to force a new rule that one of the cabin crew gets seat #2 during a pee break? Well you have potentially just swapped the potential for a suicidal/murderous pilot for a suicidal/murderous cabin crew.

 

In theory with 1 pilot you have a 1 in a million chance of a nutter. With 2 pilots that becomes 1 in 500,000. Add the cabin crew and you have maybe 1 in 100,000 depending on which crew member you rotate AND the fact that it is easier for a nutter to become cabin crew than pilot.

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1 in 4 people will suffer mental illness in their lives....pilots I suspect more often due to job stress.

 

There are 130,000 commercial pilots in the world.

 

You wanna ground all the ones that have had an episode of mental illness? Get real. That is probably 30%+ of the people flying you around.

 

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. But I do think this tragedy exposes some rather serious problems which need to be addressed.

 

To me it seems grossly inadequate that Lufthansa/Germanwings perform psychological evaluations only once. They do apparently have a program to report others who may have displayed signs without fear of reprisals. If find this lacking and a culture of sweeping stuff under the carpet or marginalizing e.g. Burn-Out, Kreislauf. ANY episode should be taken vary serious and I think I read the FAA required his pilot license to be annotated with the limitation.

 

As you say, pilots on the whole experience more job stress and are at an elevated risk for having psychological issues at some point in their career.

Given that, would it not be reasonable to require the airlines to regularly evaluate for this as they do for other professions involving the public safety?

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People want to fly to Paris and back for 80 EUR and get warm gourmet food and unlimited booze in the flight. Airlines have it hard these days.

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As you say, pilots on the whole experience more job stress and are at an elevated risk for having psychological issues at some point in their career.

Given that, would it not be reasonable to require the airlines to regularly evaluate for this as they do for other professions involving the public safety?

Problem is you wanna make it career ending? Then people will cover up to save their career.

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As you say, pilots on the whole experience more job stress and are at an elevated risk for having psychological issues at some point in their career.

Given that, would it not be reasonable to require the airlines to regularly evaluate for this as they do for other professions involving the public safety?

 

Since the actual risk caused by pschological problems in pilots is essentially zero (yes, this occurance was tragic, but look at the numbers) then what you are suggesting is just another pointless hoop for pilots to jump through and as stated elsewhere quite probably a reason to lie about their feelings and hide problems which might well actually increase risk.

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In hindsight everything becomes clear. The Copilot was already showing signs of mental illness, depression DURING THE TRAINING and was required to interrupt/withdraw from the program for 6 months!! He was in long-term treatment for this and his Pilot License and file listed this limitation.

 

It just boggles the mind... WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKING ALLOWING HIM TO FLY???

The airlines invest a fortune in the training of their pilots, especially Lufthansa. Sadly it appears they chose to look the other way despite very early indications that he was a risk.

 

Pilots also invest a great deal of money in their own training, and for a profession that is increasingly precarious and for many a zero hours job. Admitting any psychological weakness can mean the end of your career.

 

See the professional pilots forum at prprune.org for more about this. I was shocked to read about the contract conditions, some even have to pay to fly to gain the flying experience hours.

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It isn't rocket science. Have the secure door but don't have the function on the door that allows it to be locked from inside the cockpit. Basically all crew members will have their own personal pin number that will open the door from either side. That way then no single mental member of crew will be able to lock themselves in like he did here. However on final approach or takeoff at say 800ft altitude one mental pilot could easily if they wanted push the controls fully forward and hold them there. Take off would be best probably.

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However on final approach or takeoff at say 800ft altitude one mental pilot could easily if they wanted push the controls fully forward and hold them there. Take off would be best probably.

No, only the pilot has flight control I believe unless switched over. HEM could you confirm or deny this?

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It isn't rocket science. Have the secure door but don't have the function on the door that allows it to be locked from inside the cockpit. Basically all crew members will have their own personal pin number that will open the door from either side. That way then no single mental member of crew will be able to lock themselves in like he did here. However on final approach or takeoff at say 800ft altitude one mental pilot could easily if they wanted push the controls fully forward and hold them there. Take off would be best probably.

Doh! Why do you think the function is there that allows the door to be locked from inside the cockpit?

 

It is so that in case of a 9/11 style attack the pilot can stop the bad guys from making a crew member open the door under duress.

 

Furthermore the door was used succesfully for this purpose back in 2012 - but the other way around from this week!!!

 

 

A JetBlue flight bound for Las Vegas made an emergency landing in Texas on Tuesday after the captain acted strangely, was locked out of the cockpit by his co-pilot and was wrestled to the ground by passengers, witnesses and authorities said.

 

The plane's co-pilot, concerned by the "erratic" behavior, locked the door behind the captain when he left the cockpit during the flight, according to the Federal Aviation Administration.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/27/travel/jet-blue-flight-diverted/

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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32087203

 

 

Alps crash co-pilot Andreas Lubitz hid the details of an existing illness from his employers, German prosecutors say.

 

They said they found torn-up sick notes in his homes, including one covering the day of the crash.

 

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