Do an MBA in Germany (Ops+Supply Chain Management)

45 posts in this topic

 

Yes I will take up the course ONLY if I get an admit from the universities i mentioned earlier.

 

The MBA course at the (commercial) Mannheim Business School is pretty easy to get in, provided you can pay (and that's a bit more than 30k iirc...). At least it's easy to get in compared to the proper - free - Mannheim Master of Management course at (public) Mannheim University, the one that's among the top 5 for Business worldwide.

 

On the offtopic discussion above, i agree with nateo btw. Germany's growth in the last decade is largely built on undercutting its competition based on some clever exploiting of the currency union in addition to - or rather: built around - Germany transitioning to some of the cheaper labour costs in Europe at the expense of the working poor, along with virtual disassembling Germany's middle class. Didn't start a decade ago, but three-and-a-half decades ago under that other right-wing-SPD chancellor. The second of his ilk was just the nail in the coffin.

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You may quote whatever wikis and statistics you like. Some of us were living here at the time.

 

I'm surprised someone arguing about economics has such apparent disdain for statistics.

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The MBA course at the (commercial) Mannheim Business School is pretty easy to get in, provided you can pay (and that's a bit more than 30k iirc...). At least it's easy to get in compared to the proper - free - Mannheim Master of Management course at (public) Mannheim University, the one that's among the top 5 for Business worldwide.

 

Agreed. The cost is definitely high. Can you tell how well recognized is Mannheim's MBA degree in other parts of Europe?

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Something else to keep in mind, some hiring people perceive MBAs to be strictly executive degrees. I've been to a few job fairs here, and many of the recruiters/HR people dismissed me out of hand, telling me I was overqualified for all their positions, and that there were no management positions available. I owned my own business for a while and am trying to change industries, so I would've been happy with an entry-level job.

 

In the US, there are more and more people doing MBAs straight out of undergrad, so it's less of an issue there, in general. My situation was pretty unique. I got the MBA to run my own business better, and it was basically free as a tax write-off. But if I had to pay for it, I would wait until I'm in a position in an organization where my experience would get me to the type of executive jobs I want, but the lack of an MBA was holding me back.

 

An MBA without the relevant experience seems, not useless, but definitely not a silver bullet either.

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Being Indian does not exclude you from working at a Mittelstand, but might not be that easy as a first step. I have worked at a mittelstand, but after spending two years in Germany and was relatively fluent in German by the time I joined there.

 

Do you think they would have hired you if didn't already speak German and if you had not already spent two years in Germany? I don't think Conquistador was implying that Indians can't work in the Mittelstand, just that it is more difficult for foreigners who don't speak German and that the OP would be at a comparative disadvantage.

 

 

I know a few Indian students who did MBA in Mannheim and they have both found jobs in Germany. For the guy in Finance it was relatively hard to find a job, but for the IT guy, it was fairly easy.

 

Did they complete their degrees at the private school business school with over 30k in tuition fees? If so, did they receive positions that justified the costs of their degrees?

 

 

Unfortunately, they are not on Toytown. I would not be able to share their contacts with you without asking them first.

 

Could you please tell them about Toytown and ask them to post their stories? I'm still waiting to hear examples of how it makes financial sense for foreigners to move here for an MBA.

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If your grades/experience are good enough to get into a top-tier MBA program in the US, do that instead. I think you can make a case for spending a ton of money to go to one of the best programs, but I think it's hard to justify spending a bunch of money to go to a middle-ranked program.

 

One of my friends from an MBA program at a no-name state college landed a production scheduling job at Rolls Royce before he graduated. He didn't offer, and I didn't ask, how much he's making, but I know he turned down a job at Boeing that paid $55k, so I know the Rolls gig pays at least a bit more. Total cost of the program was like $12k. Pretty much everyone who fished the program in the top 10% of the classes we took together got a good job at the end. One is a loan officer, another is a credit analyst, one is the lead HR talent recruiter for a big regional company, and one is working at a regional accounting firm.

 

I'm really the only one of my peers who doesn't have a good job right now, and I'm the only one in Germany. I know a sample size of one isn't representative, and it's a bit easier if you have a German degree, but I think some people overestimate how great the job market here is for foreigners.

 

There was one guy in the program from Romania who couldn't find a job in the US and had to go back, but he has a pretty good job in Bucharest now, so I guess it worked out OK for him. The Chinese and Indian people in the program who wanted to stay found jobs, and some of them weren't even in the top 25%.

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A 55k (dollar!) salary makes a business case for a MBA? Okay, now i have a good reason to never spend money on one...

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Do you think they would have hired you if didn't already speak German and if you had not already spent two years in Germany? I don't think Conquistador was implying that Indians can't work in the Mittelstand, just that it is more difficult for foreigners who don't speak German and that the OP would be at a comparative disadvantage.

 

That's correct, engelchen- I was not implying that whatsoever, and you're absolutely correct that they want to hire well-integrated people.

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A 55k (dollar!) salary makes a business case for a MBA? Okay, now i have a good reason to never spend money on one...

 

If you spend $12k on it, that's a good deal. If you spend $120k on it, not so much. That particular friend had an undergrad in English education, so it's not like you can just go straight from Shakespeare to manufacturing scheduling.

 

Entry-level MBA pay is really all over the place, even for top-tier schools. I read a report where the highest-reported salary was $375k for a guy from Kellogg. The lowest salary from Kellogg was $24k. The lowest of all the top schools was $15k for a Ross graduate. I'm not sure the price tag for a lot of those programs is worth it for most students. My MBA was free as a tax write-off, so I can't complain.

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Nateo is 100% spot on. The main program I would target would be the Masters of Logistics program at MIT. There are a few other good ones in the USA, but that's tops in my book. Go strong or don't go at all.

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If you spend $12k on it, that's a good deal.

 

If you are an average earner (for Germany) and spend $12k plus one year worth in salary on it - cuz that's what you realistically have to invest - at $55k even with considerable salary progression you'd need - depending on salary progression in your old and new career - between five and ten years until your investment has just about amortisized itself. Afterwards, the after-tax benefit of having that MBA would come up to around 500 bucks per month.

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If you are an average earner (for Germany) and spend $12k plus one year worth in salary on it - cuz that's what you realistically have to invest - at $55k even with considerable salary progression you'd need - depending on salary progression in your old and new career - between five and ten years until your investment has just about amortisized itself. Afterwards, the after-tax benefit of having that MBA would come up to around 500 bucks per month.

 

If you're already making average money for Germany, then congratulations! You're winning at life, no advice or MBA needed.

 

The Americans paying $12k for an MBA in my program worked, a lot of them full-time, most of them at least part-time. I was running my business full-time while I was in school (also full-time), and that wasn't unusual. For a foreign student that's not feasible, so you have greater opportunity cost as a foreign student. Most of the Chinese students were already executives with cushy jobs, the couple Indians I knew were from rich families, but I'm not sure what the rest of them did.

 

By most indicators, Europe has been hit harder, and been down longer, than during the Great Depression. If you have a good job, bully for you, but a lot of people are really struggling to find anything. I thought Draghi's Jackson Hole speech was a good overview: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/key/date/2014/html/sp140822.en.html

 

"The most recent GDP data confirm that the recovery in the euro area remains uniformly weak, with subdued wage growth even in non-stressed countries suggesting lacklustre demand. In these circumstances, it seems likely that uncertainty over the strength of the recovery is weighing on business investment and slowing the rate at which workers are being rehired."

 

"The way back to higher employment, in other words, is a policy mix that combines monetary, fiscal and structural measures at the union level and at the national level."

 

So, the Eurozone is basically screwed.

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The Americans paying $12k for an MBA in my program worked, a lot of them full-time, most of them at least part-time. I was running my business full-time while I was in school (also full-time), and that wasn't unusual. For a foreign student that's not feasible, so you have greater opportunity cost as a foreign student.

 

It is precisely due to the greater opportunity costs faced by foreign students why I can't understand the OP's reasoning for coming here for an MBA.

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It boggles my mind why so many people consider random, mediocre schools for graduate education. I am not sure if these places exist because there are people like this or vice versa.

 

You go to graduate school to obtain a specific skill that outweighs the opportunity cost of going to school. It is an investment, and when you invest in anything, the idea is to make good choices that maximize the return to that. Going to Joe's North-Southeastern University of Business (and Tanning Salon) is not a good investment. You go somewhere good with a global reputation, or because there is a specific high-quality niche that a regional school might have. If you can't get in or afford it, you don't go. Don't make compromises - it is NOT worth it, especially as Nateo mentions if you are doing well already.

 

For an MBA, look top 20 US, look INSEAD, look Bocconi, look globally. If a German school fits, of course do it, but have a really good reason. Chances are most schools in Germany are going to play to specific niches that are more likely to be appreciated locally and not globally. If coming from overseas, go somewhere globally focused.

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Perhaps it's that a lot of people don't understand the implicit value provided by top schools and try to cut corners, i.e., be "penny wise and pound foolish". The world is increasingly "winner-take-all", or, more accurately, focused on perceived superstars.

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I think it's perhaps more cynical than that. On the one hand, you have overseas students looking for a potential foot-in-the-door to come to/stay in Europe. On the other, you have an oversupply of mediocre universities looking for new cash sources to keep them afloat. Bit of a devil's bargain, really, but in the long run, I am not sure if beneficial to either party, especially with the rise of MOOC's, etc.

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Did not see that you quoted me till now Engelchen. Here are my answers.

 

 

Do you think they would have hired you if didn't already speak German and if you had not already spent two years in Germany? I don't think Conquistador was implying that Indians can't work in the Mittelstand, just that it is more difficult for foreigners who don't speak German and that the OP would be at a comparative disadvantage.

 

They would not have hired me if I did not speak the lingo. That is why I said it would not be easy as a first step. What Conqui said was - "Frankly, if I were Indian, I would focus on Canada or Australia instead.". But the OP would be in Germany for a reasonable time by the time he is ready for a job and if he is serious about staying here, he should be able to get to a fair level of German by then.

 

 

Did they complete their degrees at the private school business school with over 30k in tuition fees? If so, did they receive positions that justified the costs of their degrees?

 

Yes, they did the MBA's from the business school and not the MMM Programm from the University. For one of them, I can say that he indeed receive a position that justify the costs (in fact higher than what an IE Business school graduate friend of mine earns in monetory terms). For the second person though, I cannot comment as I do not know how much he is earning.

 

 

Could you please tell them about Toytown and ask them to post their stories? I'm still waiting to hear examples of how it makes financial sense for foreigners to move here for an MBA.

 

Well, you are hearing it from me already. If you need further information on the story let me know.

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It is precisely due to the greater opportunity costs faced by foreign students why I can't understand the OP's reasoning for coming here for an MBA.

 

Engelchan,

Have you ever taken a look at the fees of American business schools? All top business schools(ranked 20+) charge about $60K+ for their mba programs. The average salary bagged by the graduates is around $110K. Dont forget the living expenses for 2 years.

Now an MBA from a reputed german business school costs around $40K whereas such graduates earn around $95K.

Also German business school are slowly being recognized globally. ESMT has entered the top 100 colleges list this year.

your POV might have been valid 3-4 years back, but now times are changing. :)

 

Viele Danke!

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Again, the real value of the top programs is the connections you make and the alumni networks, not necessarily the nuts and bolts of what you learn in the classroom. If you think the tradeoff you mention above is worth it, then go with a German-based program, but I wouldn't advise you turn down any of the top programs in the world.

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If you think the tradeoff you mention above is worth it, then go with a German-based program, but I wouldn't advise you turn down any of the top programs in the world.

 

Yes of course. that goes without saying.

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