Do an MBA in Germany (Ops+Supply Chain Management)

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I am planning to pursue my mba studies from germany. Preferably from one of the top universities. Mannheim BS, WHU, EBS, Frankfurt, HHL.

Specialization : Operations and Supply Chain management.

 

I am well aware that it is an expensive affair with fees around 30K Euros. what i want to know is if it is worth the investment.

is it difficult for Non EU immigrants to get job in germany post completion of degree? what is the average salary that an MBA grad can get?

 

And yes, I am learning German. expected to finish till B1 before I enter germany. :)

Danke!

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Why Germany? Seriously? If you are willing to spend the money for a an MBA choose a good school in a country where the degree is well known.

 

And use the search function. We've discussed MBAs in Germany before.

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As you know, it's about the money, engelchen.

 

OP- you should learn a lot more about Germany's business culture before you decide that you will study and work here. You would probably have an easier time in one of the Anglophone countries that have Indian diasporas.

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As you know, it's about the money, engelchen.

 

But we're talking about MBA applicants, not foolish kids still in high school! I just can't understand how people who think that they have the necessary background to comprehend an MBA curriculum do not seem to have ever heard of opportunity costs and ROI. I find it truly baffling. :blink:

 

If I ever had to interview an MBA grad from a German university my first question would be "Why Germany?" and then have them explain their investment decision.

 

Although Pog has repeatedly given a cohesive, logical, and convincing explanation for his decision, I've yet to hear one that makes sense for someone who is not in Germany and does not already know the language and culture.

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i would recommend you invest it elsewhere..or in other country where the degree will be more recognized..

 

until you master the german language, your mba will not help you much in getting a job worthy of such an investment

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But we're talking about MBA applicants, not foolish kids still in high school! I just can't understand how people who think that they have the necessary background to comprehend an MBA curriculum do not seem to have ever heard of opportunity costs and ROI. I find it truly baffling. :blink:

 

If I ever had to interview an MBA grad from a German university my first question would be "Why Germany?" and then have them explain their investment decision.

 

Although Pog has repeatedly given a cohesive, logical, and convincing explanation for his decision, I've yet to hear one that makes sense for someone who is not in Germany and does not already know the language and culture.

 

I agree completely.

The concept of opportunity cost seems lost on most folks- their thought process seems to end with "I've heard that university is free in Germany" OR "I've heard that I can make a lot of money in Germany".

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Why Germany? Seriously? If you are willing to spend the money for a an MBA choose a good school in a country where the degree is well known.

 

And use the search function. We've discussed MBAs in Germany before.

 

 

Engelchen,

Yes I will take up the course ONLY if I get an admit from the universities i mentioned earlier. I believe those univs are among the top 5 in the country.

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But we're talking about MBA applicants, not foolish kids still in high school! I just can't understand how people who think that they have the necessary background to comprehend an MBA curriculum do not seem to have ever heard of opportunity costs and ROI.

 

 

Engelchen,

This is exactly what I want to know. As i mentioned earlier, I know it is an expensive affair; a risk I am willing to take provided I can get a good deserving job after that. (Thats ROI for you). Now all I need to know is if the job market is lucrative for Non EU immigrants.

 

 

If I ever had to interview an MBA grad from a German university my first question would be "Why Germany?" and then have them explain their investment decision.

 

 

Firstly, I am not much interested in moving to US for studies. "Why Germany?". You plan on moving to any Non Englisg speaking country and the first question people ask is "Why?". My question is "Why not?". Are there not enough jobs in Germany? Are the working conditions miserable? Do the people there hate immigrants? Do people not earn enough in Germany? Is Germany not one of the strongest economy in Europe?

 

I have done my part of research on the net. Except for my 1st question, the answer to the rest of them is "No" (please do correct me if I am wrong here).

The answer to my 1st question is what I need from you guys... :)

 

 

 

 

Although Pog has repeatedly given a cohesive, logical, and convincing explanation for his decision, I've yet to hear one that makes sense for someone who is not in Germany and does not already know the language and culture.

 

 

Yes I am not from Germany. Yes I do not know much about the language and culture. Yet. "Yet". This is one thing I am willing to do. Not just because I have to, but also because I want to.

Like I had mentioned earlier, I have started with German language course.

 

I hope i have answered your questions satisfactorily.. :)

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i would recommend you invest it elsewhere..or in other country where the degree will be more recognized..

 

until you master the german language, your mba will not help you much in getting a job worthy of such an investment

 

 

and lets say if I do gain enough proficiency in german language, then?

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Yes I will take up the course ONLY if I get an admit from the universities i mentioned earlier. I believe those univs are among the top 5 in the country.

 

Although the universities you've mentioned are well known in Germany, MBAs are still relatively new in Germany and not that well known. Having an MBA does not necessarily open new doors nor lead to higher salaries.

 

 

Now all I need to know is if the job market is lucrative for Non EU immigrants.

 

For non-EU immigrants with an MBA from a German university who don't speak fluent German nor know the culture? No.

 

 

"Why Germany?". You plan on moving to any Non Englisg speaking country and the first question people ask is "Why?". My question is "Why not?".

 

First of all German is a difficult language to learn and master (it takes most people years to become business fluent and many give up before they reach it).

 

 

Are there not enough jobs in Germany?

 

Not for business grads. Germany produces more business grads than the economy needs so employers can be choosy. Why should an employer choose a foreigner who can't speak the language properly when they can hire a local who knows the language and culture? What is your USP?

 

 

Do people not earn enough in Germany?

 

Compared to the costs of an MBA from a good school? Not really.

 

 

I have done my part of research on the net. Except for my 1st question, the answer to the rest of them is "No" (please do correct me if I am wrong here).

 

You are wrong. The Mittelstand is the motor of the German economy and the Mittelstand operates mainly in German (or in a German dialect).

 

 

Yes I do not know much about the language and culture. Yet. "Yet". This is one thing I am willing to do. Not just because I have to, but also because I want to.

Like I had mentioned earlier, I have started with German language course.

 

What are you planning on doing in the years it'll take you to learn business fluent German as well as the culture? When you try to estimate your ROI you need to take into account the years of lost earnings while you study and learn the language.

 

 

and lets say if I do gain enough proficiency in german language, then?

 

You are still a foreigner who doesn't necessarily know enough about German culture to be a manager in the Mittelstand.

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Hi there, gazzyorock,

 

there's just going to be this one post from me to try and get through to you so, even if you can't see my points, don't expect a response if you post any more repeat questions.

 

 

I am planning to pursue my mba studies from germany. Preferably from one of the top universities. Mannheim BS, WHU, EBS, Frankfurt, HHL. Specialization : Operations and Supply Chain management.

I am well aware that it is an expensive affair with fees around 30K Euros.

what i want to know is if it is worth the investment.

is it difficult for Non EU immigrants to get job in germany post completion of degree?

what is the average salary that an MBA grad can get?

I am learning German. expected to finish till B1 before I enter germany.

 

It is not easy for Germans to get jobs in Germany right after graduation unless they have acheived exceptional results or have very good (networking) connections. Many non-EU immigrants who have graduated from German unis have posted on TT that they have found it is difficult.

 

There is no way anyone here is going to be able to tell you what the average salary that an MBA grad can get is. First reason being that salary* offers are rarely published with individual negotiations being practically the norm. Secondly, in most German companies, there is little recognition of any extra investment value in an MBA candidate. This situation is changing gradually, but Germany is still a long way behind achieving the predictable ROI levels seen in most English-speaking, or even other EU, countries.

 

 

I am not much interested in moving to US for studies. "Why Germany?". You plan on moving to any Non Englisg speaking country and the first question people ask is "Why?". My question is "Why not?". Are there not enough jobs in Germany? Are the working conditions miserable? Do the people there hate immigrants? Do people not earn enough in Germany? Is Germany not one of the strongest economy in Europe?

I have done my part of research on the net. Except for my 1st question, the answer to the rest of them is "No" (please do correct me if I am wrong here).

 

There are other countries than the US, even in the EU, where good unis have been running MBA programmes for about 15 – 20 years longer than those in Germany. The longer their unis have been doing so, the higher the acceptance level of the MBA is in that country's job market.

 

There are very good reasons people (on TT) ask “Why Germany?”. Unfortunately, you failed to consider that it would have helped us to help you if you had answered that question in some detail. Your response of "Why not?" etc. was rather tedious as it makes us have to work harder just to try to make you think.

 

 

Yes I am not from Germany. Yes I do not know much about the language and culture. Yet. "Yet". This is one thing I am willing to do. Not just because I have to, but also because I want to.

Like I had mentioned earlier, I have started with German language course.

I hope i have answered your questions satisfactorily.. :)

No, you have not answered satisfactorily. If you do intend to obtain an MBA at a German uni you will, of course, be expected to do your own research on the net, but IMO you probably first need to learn to do so to a higher and more diligent standard. Wanting to may be better than having to, but I applaud your willingness more.

 

 

"Why not?"

 

2: Are there not enough jobs in Germany?

 

3: Are the working conditions miserable?

 

4: Do the people there hate immigrants?

 

5: Do people not earn enough in Germany?

 

6: Is Germany not one of the strongest economy in Europe?

 

I have done my part of research on the net. Except for my 1st question, the answer to the rest of them is "No" (please do correct me if I am wrong here).

The answer to my 1st question is what I need from you guys... :)

Well, there's your problem because it is not up to us to tell you “Why not” so only you can answer your 1st question.

 

2: If you think there are enough jobs in Germany maybe you'd care to advise the Bundesagentur fuer Arbeit on how they could start to reduce the average periods of unemployment for highly skilled workers. I presume you've been researching their annual, quarterly and monthly statistics for graduates in your current or proposed job market sectors.**

 

3: Working conditions may not be miserable in comparison to many other countries but over the last 24 years they have, at best, barely improved and in many ways (such as working hours, income growth v expenses), particularly in the last 6 years, have been gradually deteriorating.

 

4: As in most countries, particularly those where populist or extreme right wing political parties tend to make propaganda encouraging them, some people do hate immigrants. Fortunately only a very small minority of those are likely to express their hate overtly, but it is worth being aware enough of the local news to avoid meetings or demos and wise not to move into a flat next-door to their party clubs, offices or 'fashion' shops. This is just one area of life in Germany where good comprehension of the language can be of vital importance.

 

5: Whether or not the average worker earns enough is irrelevant wrt your wants and needs. According to your wishes to achieve monthly savings equivalent to the entire average nett income of Germans with your skills and experience, (expressed and responded to in the quotes below), plus the need to add an ROI on those proposed 30K MBA course costs, you should be asking yourself what your chances are of landing a job earning ~2.5 x the national average salary.

 

6: Germany is not one of the strongest economies in Europe, currently it is the strongest economy in Europe, but that's only relevant to you IF and when you manage to become a productive part of that economy.

 

 

I am currently working in one of the top global IT firms in India.

Bachelor in Electronics engineering Work Ex : 3 years (IT sector after graduation).

Technology : Microsoft Business Intelligence.

Current Post : Analyst (Sr. Analyst by end of this year.)

Certifications : In progress (halfway through)

German language proficieny : Started with A1. planned for A2 as well.

Can anyone tell how much can i expect if manage to bag a job in German IT sector; Munich or anyother city?

I am planning for personal savings upto Eur. 1500 - 2000 per month. is it feasible?

 

 

 

@gazzyorock: In Munich graduated programmers start from 1500 - 2000 eur NET per month. After few years of valuable experience it can rise to 3000 net. It's harder to get more, especially if the company will have to apply for visa for you. You will be paying lower taxes if you will come here with unemployed wife (around 500 eur less taxes monthly). You will have to calculate min 1000 - 1500 for living, so to achieve level of your savings you would have to be above average.

 

 

*There are websites which you can research for sector, branch or company pay levels such as Glassdoor.com - Company Salaries and Reviews, Lohnspiegel.de - Lohn- und Gehalts- Check or Employer Rating - Arbeitgeber Bewertung - kununu

 

**I suggest you also do some research of the figures, or opportunities***, behind these links.

Arbeitsmarkt allgemein - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de

Akademiker - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de

Fachkräftebedarf und Stellen - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de

Labour Market Reports - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de

Applying for work in Germany - www.arbeitsagentur.de

***JOBBÖRSE - My advanced search for job vacancies

 

what engelchen said! ++

 

2B

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2B,

I went through your post twice to be sure that i didnt miss anything. Thanks a lot :). Engelchen, that goes for you as well.

I still have enough time on my hands to decide the further course of action.

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I work for one of those Mittelstand companies. They really expect you to know all of the cultural subleties from Day One and fit in seamlessly, also linguistically. Frankly, if I were Indian, I would focus on Canada or Australia instead.

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Being Indian does not exclude you from working at a Mittelstand, but might not be that easy as a first step. I have worked at a mittelstand, but after spending two years in Germany and was relatively fluent in German by the time I joined there. If the company had not gone bust, I might still be working there now. Three years after I left the company, our team still meets up regularly. This is all to say that being Indian is not too bad even for the Mittelstand.

 

OP, you are in IT from your other posts. Why dont you try to do an MBA in the same decipline? If you do not have any experience in Ops/Supply chain, an MBA will not be beneficial to you. I know a few Indian students who did MBA in Mannheim and they have both found jobs in Germany. For the guy in Finance it was relatively hard to find a job, but for the IT guy, it was fairly easy.

 

One of the biggest companies close to Mannheim does not hire MBA's from Mannheim. This I know from people who are working there and have MBA from another top business school in Europe.

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OP, you are in IT from your other posts. Why dont you try to do an MBA in the same decipline? If you do not have any experience in Ops/Supply chain, an MBA will not be beneficial to you.

 

Angelbeast,

Yes, I am from IT. The reason why I chose Ops is because I am interested in it. An MBA in IT severely restricts your further prospects. While post Ops-MBA, the choice of Industry\Sector is upto you (and of course your luck).

 

 

If the company had not gone bust, I might still be working there now.

 

Sorry to hear this.. :(

 

 

I know a few Indian students who did MBA in Mannheim and they have both found jobs in Germany. For the guy in Finance it was relatively hard to find a job, but for the IT guy, it was fairly easy.

 

Can you PM me the contacts of these people? It will be helpful if I can connect with them personally.

Thanks! :)

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Angelbeast,

Yes, I am from IT. The reason why I chose Ops is because I am interested in it. An MBA in IT severely restricts your further prospects. While post Ops-MBA, the choice of Industry\Sector is upto you (and of course your luck).

 

while that is true, how much of an exposure do you have to the Ops/supply chain environment from the business side. The thing is, having experience in thes sectors might help you in your MBA to think differently and critically judge existing practices and optimize. In the absence of experience, the MBA would just be theory and does not add value in my opinion.

 

 

Sorry to hear this..

I am actually better off now, so that was a welcome change.

 

 

Can you PM me the contacts of these people? It will be helpful if I can connect with them personally.

Thanks!

 

Unfortunately, they are not on Toytown. I would not be able to share their contacts with you without asking them first.

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This topic has been covered pretty well by the folks above, but if you don't believe them, I recently graduated with an MBA - Finance and am moving back to US shortly. I can answer some of your questions from experience. YMMV and all that.

 

 

Firstly, I am not much interested in moving to US for studies.

If you're doing an MBA, I think that's a mistake. For better or worse US MBAs are the gold standard. A German MBA probably won't give you much traction outside of Germany.

 

 

Are there not enough jobs in Germany?

 

My German is pretty good (C1-ish) and the only jobs I could find were low-paying sales jobs, with lots of travel. I had more interesting offers in Eastern Europe, but the exchange rate would kill me on making my loan repayments.

 

 

Do the people there hate immigrants?

 

In my experience, some do, some just don't really want us here. In any case, no one will roll out of the red carpet for you.

 

 

Is Germany not one of the strongest economy in Europe?

 

It remains to be seen whether prosperity built on a beggar-thy-neighbor policy within a single currency zone is sustainable, but they've been doing pretty well lately. They were regarded by many as "the sick man of Europe" as short as a decade ago.

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They were regarded by many as "the sick man of Europe" as short as a decade ago.

 

I even agreed with some of the earlier bits of your post...until you got into the "Germans don't really like us" part.

But this sentence above makes me really wonder if you don't know what the word decade means, or if you're just totally ignorant about recent history. For an MBA student, I'd expect your basic education to be good enough that you would know that Germany hasn't been considered "the sick man of Europe" since shortly after WWII...mid 70s there was a bit of a dip, but not enough to push Germany very far down the European scale.

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I even agreed with some of the earlier bits of your post...until you got into the "Germans don't really like us" part.But this sentence above makes me really wonder if you don't know what the word decade means, or if you're just totally ignorant about recent history. For an MBA student, I'd expect your basic education to be good enough that you would know that Germany hasn't been considered "the sick man of Europe" since shortly after WWII...mid 70s there was a bit of a dip, but not enough to push Germany very far down the European scale.

 

Are you serious? I find it ironic you accuse me of being ignorant of recent history when you make assertions like that.

 

2004 was within the previous 10 years, otherwise known as a "decade."

 

I'll cite my sources:

"slow growth, high unemployment, record budget deficits, mass protest rallies. . . Yet in 2005 the sick man of Europe, as Germany is now regularly called, will at last begin its recovery." Economist. 2004. “Germany on the Mend.” November 17. http://www.economist.com/node/3352024.

 

Unemployment in Germany was 11.208% in 2005. It was 9.3% in France, 7.69% in Italy.

 

http://www.indexmundi.com/germany/unemployment_rate.html

http://www.indexmundi.com/france/unemployment_rate.html

http://www.indexmundi.com/italy/unemployment_rate.html

 

Yes, Germany is doing well now, largely because they cut benefits (Hartz IV), plus big companies threatened to off-shore to wring concessions from trade unions. So German competitiveness was built on declining real wages, with only a modest upswing in productivity. There was also a large increase in low-wage work (mini jobs), with all the problems involved. Other Eurozone countries experienced higher growth rates and higher wage growth, but similarly modest productivity growth. Now the periphery countries are uncompetitive.

 

20% of German workers are "low wage," one of the worst rates in Western Europe.

 

https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigures/Indicators/QualityEmployment/Dimension2/2_1_LowWages.html

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You may quote whatever wikis and statistics you like. Some of us were living here at the time.

 

There may have been higher growth rates in other countries, but Germany's basic level was still high enough to attract workers from other European countries throughout that period.

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