AOK insisting on back payments

[HEM 11,163]

Here endeth the lesson - Amen

[ellbie 15]

I didn't read all three pages of comments...just the first page. I feel incredibly sorry for the OP. I read his original post from a totally different perspective than everyone else I guess. My interpretation was that he ignored a law by either ignorance, laziness, or the thought that it wouldn't bite him in the ass this hard. Whatever the reason it happened there is no sense in lecturing him about it now. What he wants to know now is if there are any loopholes or ways around or even just an easier way to deal with the AOK and get these papers filled out. We've all made mistakes...or at least I know I have. And yes, he doesn't want to hear the same answer that the AOK is giving him even if it's the "law". He wants to know if people have other ideas or advice. I agree with helping by providing him with correct, factual information but we don't have to act so high and mighty about it all talking about how its his responsibility to know what the laws are and that Germany isn't a socialist country that handholds. I'm sure everyone here can relate that coming from another country means sometimes what you've grown up to think is universal is not...and it's not always easy to know that. I know that coming from the U.S. there are often times you can explain yourself to a customer service agent and with a reasonable explanation they will waive back fees. I've found here in Germany that isn't so easy if a) you don't know the language, and b)the culture is different and they don't really make exceptions for people. I'm not arguing which system is right or wrong...just that its different and its nice to remember that and have a bit of empathy for other people in a tough situation.

 

OP, I can't comment on the AOK but I know with the International insurance I use they send me form after form often with the same questions over and over. It's extremely frustrating and I'm convinced its a way to get you to give up on your claim. But in the end after filling them all out, months later and after tons of back and forth (they also lost my forms as well), they finally cover my claim. This may be the same situation so I would say to have patience, keep filling out those forms (just ask your friends or use google translate). It might be possible that they need all these forms to review your case and see if they can make an exception for you. Try and view the form-filling as your punishment for not knowing the law and hope and pray that something good comes from it.

 

As far as getting coverage for your current health issues...as a self-employed person you do not have to get your insurance from the AOK. I use international insurance which is cheap. The coverage isn't great so you'll want to make sure they would cover all of your issues first. It's also in English so much easier to navigate. I will say though that coming from the U.S. I had never had to file my own claims with insurance. It was always taken care of by my doctor and made things really easy. I took that for granted and made some expenseive mistakes in the beginning (from my own ignorance). After getting quite a few claims rejected I now know that I have to call ahead to pre-authorize the problem. And this really needs to be done with EVERY little thing the doctor wants to do or I risk paying out of pocket. In the U.S. the doctors often were familiar with insurance policies and so they knew what tests they could do or else they took the courtesy of calling and checking themselves. Here you have to be your own advocate for EVERYTHING.

 

I 100% agree that I hate when people say it's the responsibility to know the law. It's impossible to know the all the laws in every country! And while we all should take it upon ourselves to learn them when we move to a new country sometimes things are miscommunicated and slip through the cracks. I'm truly sorry you find yourself in this situation and more sorry that you got such a terrible, snooty response from this community. I'll probably get my head bit off for saying that but sometimes it seems like people here forget what it was like when they first moved here...or else maybe they're just all perfect citizens and they knew everything from day 1. In that case, write a book people! I would love to know the secrets of adjusting as an ex-pat without making any mistakes!!!

 

end rant.

[sarabyrd 18,767]

It's not what he said, it's how he said it.

[yourkeau 7,723]

 

My interpretation was that he ignored a law by either ignorance, laziness, or the thought that it wouldn't bite him in the ass this hard. Whatever the reason it happened there is no sense in lecturing him about it now.

It's pretty simple: in many countries of the world if you stop paying the contract is automatically terminated, so many people just don't bother with cancelling all the contracts "correctly", they simply stop paying.

 

In Germany it doesn't work: if you leave the country you need to send 100500 cancellations to various companies.

[optimista 5,925]

...yep, and as often as not they refuse to let you go. This happened to me with AOK years ago and who I would never recommend. They lied - sorry provided incorrect information - telling me I could not leave them for another KK when if fact I could. It needed a lawyer to quote the verse and chapter in black and white before I was allowed to leave.

[ellbie 15]

 

It's not what he said, it's how he said it.

 

well it is an internet forum and perhaps English isn't his strongest language. Plus the guy is obviously frustrated. He was looking for support here and I think most people just made things feel even more hopeless for him. Sometimes even if the situation is hopeless it's best to just empathize, commiserate, and make the person feel less alone and silly for the situation he got himself in.

[Guest]

 

He was looking for support here and I think most people just made things feel even more hopeless for him.

 

Hey, I told him exactly what he wanted to hear right off the bat. He even ignored that...

 

 

AOK is totally abusing you and asking for money that you don't have. This is totally unacceptable and you should do the following:

 

1. Go to the police station and file a report, detailing the abuse that the AOK has been giving you.

 

2. Go to a lawyer and sue them for over-covering you, when you didn't want to be covered at all!!! (I learned from the GEZ-dodgers, that there's a law that states you can't be forced to be a member of an organisation you don't want to be a member of. That has to apply here just as much as it does to the GEZ)...

 

3. Get naked and masturbate (not really relevant, but always a good idea).

 

Joking aside, we gave him the only information we could give him. There are no loopholes and he misunderstood the law. That we can't help him and he'll have to pay it, but that he should try and set up a payment plan. He didn't want to hear the truth and got frustrated.

 

I already told him how to relieve that frustration, and he was much better after that. :)

[northtraveller 461]

 

Definitely, yes. You have a right to demand backpayments of all your hospital bills just like they are demanding it from you. AOK has a bad reputation, they are among the worst of public health insurance providers. But still they do what they are required to do by law.It's reverse: public health insurance companies are not obliged to insure you as a self-employed. But as you were previously insured by AOK, they are obliged to take you, so you are kind of lucky. If you weren't previously insured by AOK, then your only choice would be private health insurance which depending on your health would be cheaper or more expensive.Once again:All German residents are obliged to take health insurance.Employees with wages lower certain limit can only take public health insurance. Employees with wages over a limit can choose between public and private (only once).Self-employed can only take private health insurance unless they were previously in the public. In the latter case (your case) they can choose between public and private.After you've chosen a private health insurance you cannot go back to public (with some exceptions). At the same time if you choose to continue AOK now, you can switch to private later.

 

actually AOK is not a unified organisation across germany. What is collectively called AOK is actually a number of regional public Krankenkasse, all of which are rechtlich selbstständige. They were 11 last time i checked or a number close to that. These organisations have an AOK-Bundesverband, and so they are referred collectively in the SGB. However in regards of quality of service, there are huge differences between the various local AOKs. For example the AOK PLus which is regional for the 3 Laender of Sachen, Thueringen and Sachsen Anhalt gets consistently good rankings but of course the TK has the great advantage of being bundesweit. Other regional AOKs don't shine exactly...

 

Furthermore, it is a fact that coming to Germany as a foreigner someone must do his homework concerning health insurance. If not possible due to language or other reasons, then, pay a broker who knows what he is doing and can navigate the system, and also be appropriately insured to compensate any damages due to wrong advice. Not knowing the law is not an excuse. By coming to live in a country, you also accept its laws.

[AncientBrit 1,934]

 

... AOK PLus which is regional for the 3 Laender of Sachen, Thueringen and Sachsen Anhalt gets consistently good rankings ... Other regional AOKs don't shine exactly...

 

northtraveller quotes no sources for his statements above, but on the basis of Mrs AB and myself (both excellent references well respected worldwide) AOK Plus has never refused, declined, argued with or otherwise made a fuss about anything at all since we arrived here 10 years ago.

[YorkshireLad6 7,152]

 

It's pretty simple: in many countries of the world if you stop paying the contract is automatically terminated, so many people just don't bother with cancelling all the contracts "correctly", they simply stop paying.

 

I really would dispute that or they'd be writing off load of unpaid debts having supplied services without a care in the world. Most companies in most countries, especially for telecommunications and media services have a minimum contract you can't walk away from without a penalty - it's part of their business model (to spread high startup costs or subsidised equipment over the life of a contract). Many might not renew for another 12 months as often happens in Germany, but a lot do. For non-service orientated contracts such as subscriptions to magazines then I might agree. Failure to pay for the renewal is an indication of cancellation, but in Germany it is somewhat more onerous as you have to cancel in writing to get out of the deal. In the case of magazine subscriptions (for example) you get a refund of any unused subscription, assuming your minimum period is complete where often you got a bonus to begin in the first place.

[fraufruit 42,493]

I think this thread has gotten to the point of no return. :)

[Guest]

It was the best thread we've had in a long time. It got me through the past two days. We just put our release into production, so the boring phase is over, as of tomorrow, but it helped me get through some of that. :)

[2B_orNot2B 8,451]

Early reader - L8 responder here. Look out, it's once again 2B-typical-tombstone-text-time TTers!

 

 

Enkieke: … From looking at your personal info here on Toytown, I take it that you have both the German nationality and an Argentinian one and that you are using (correctly, no problem with that) your German passport to stay in Germany without a Visa, entitled as a German citizen to do so, right? Because without the German passport you would have to have a Visa/residence permit which would have required you to show proof of health insurance in the first place. With priviledge (living her without Visa is one in the eyes of many Expats) comes responsiblity. Simple as that. If you are using your German nationality, you need at least also play by the rules/laws in Germany.

 

 

 

 

 

@ AncientBrit: Your search may have started too late. At 6:30am on the 30^th just after post #2 from ruahepu I noticed the (original?) information posted in einkieke's user profile said, “Nationality: Argentinian/German.” Judging by their later input I presume at least sarabyrd and Starshollow had also seen that. Later that afternoon I couldn't find the thread (since the title had been edited) so returned to view the thread via >OP's profile >show all posts, and spotted the edited profile detail en route. I can only guess at the OP's motivation for doing that. When I saw he'd complained about sarabyrd's editing before she'd posted I thought, hmmm, for a complete n00b he seems to be pretty savvy with the (,or this type of,) board's features, until it dawned on me she'd probably been kind and told him what she'd done via PM.

 

 

AOK has a bad reputation, they are among the worst of public health insurance providers. But still they do what they are required to do by law.

 

 

 

@ Guest: The OP's frustration, and evident difficulties with the basic concept of 2-way-communication, may have accounted for some increased tension or even more officious attitudes than one might normally encounter when dealing with the staff of AOK Bayern. However, he may find a little cold comfort in knowing that, it is in fact a matter of record that AOK Bayern is holding the 2^nd worst (4,7 schule noten system) rating and is currently placed 18^th of 20 major statutory public health insurers in Germany in a continuing (from 2013) survey being carried out among members of the KBV*. Only Kassen which have received 10+ assessments (Bewertungen) are listed but, with the aggregate number of responses ranging from 11 – 104, an aggregate 79 for AOK Bayern seems representative enough.

*Kassenaertzliches BundesVereinigung = Federal Association of [compulsory membership=all] Public Health Insurance-contracting doctors.

 

KBV - Krankenkassennavigator - Krankenkassen-Ranking The survey starts with TOP 10 and FLOP 10 grouped listings and “Detailansicht” buttons which go to a new window showing 5 surveyed note classes. Further clicks lead to a popup with details of the 5 individual ratings for the K-kasse chosen. The most interesting parts are the appended comment threads which can be reached from tabs under each class. On reading the comments it became obvious to me that some serious admin problems appear to be all too common in certain regions. I noticed, amongst the worst rated kassen, many of the respondent's anecdotal reports mentioned the head- or regional offices playing hard-ball while they often praised the cooperative attitude of their local management contacts. (My own local AOK RLP + Saarland is, btw, the FLOPPIEST at 19^th with a note of 4,9)

The KBV raters were asked some questions wrt economic parameters which may seem less important to the general AOK membership though most questions are on matters which do affect patients more directly. I imagine all the survey respondents would have a helluva lot more day-to-day contact with all Krankenkassen than any member of the lay public.

 

@ enkieke <--*assuming you're taking the lurking position*

You might have convinced me to spend 20 - 40 minutes constructing a diplomatically presented argument (, [naturally quoting some legal chapter & verse], which may just have encouraged some slight melting of the administrative iceberg with which you are having to deal) were it not for the fact that you chose to express yourself in a manner which convinced me that you'd be incapable of understanding why, leave alone how, applying that type of strategy would be your only best hope. Plus; your obvious disregard for the value of my and every other reader or poster's time meant you'd wasted the entire volume of minutes I'd earmarked for you on first sight of your OP.

 

IMO, you should consider yourself privileged to have been 'dope-slapped' by me on this occasion because it is long past time for you to learn how to help others to help you.

 

@ ellbie

I can empathise with the OP and do sympathise with anyone who is unfortunate, ignorant or dumb enough to get caught in this kind of situation.

 

I arrived here 30 years ago, also to fill a self-employed position, without having any knowledge of German, German laws, or any visible support system so I do know, from bitter experience, what kind problems can drive one to distraction here. Back then I could only rely on my own initiative, charm and determination to learn as much as I could as fast as I could to keep me out of the really serious sheeeeyyyiiiiitttttt.

 

Nowadays, instead of out-of-date Teach-yourself books borrowed from a library, there's fresh YouTube tutorials, law forums, how-to blogs, social support services, national and local government webpages and a bazillion other resources available to anyone with access to the internet - provided they're not too lazy or distracted to bother to use those resources.

 

In 5 years on this forum I believe I've read virtually the same, (or a very similar version of the OP's), story at least 20 x a year! The same type of story followed by the same resentful response to any attempt to offer realistic advice topped off with a large dose of "you're all meanies for not feeling sorry for me and my righteous sense of victim-hood". Usually the posters are in their late teens to mid-twenties.

 

That, IMO, is what makes the current OP look like he's at least 15 years past his sell-by date. Which, combined with the fact that he has shown no sign of empathy with any of the (largely expat) TT community members he interacted with nor his fellow German citizens at large, is why I can honestly say I don't find him sympathetic enough to either feel sorry for or help.

 

I'm done.

I hope nobody else wants any for a while.

 

2B

[enkieke 53]

Guest:

i got what you meant, i didnt ignore it, my way of seing you were the first to show some empathy: When you said i should see it as a Tax, that was one of the first clues i really got.

 

ellbie:

I thank you advice as well, and also apreciate the empathy, english as a second might not helped either, it is possible.

 

AncientBritt:

Yes. i do have both nationalities.

 

mkwiede:

I habe both nationalities. I have use doctors as selbszahler. For simple things is ok, for some more they insist only with an insurance.

 

I would have answer you sooner. But i got a lot of heat and insults attach to some comment. And wasnt sure this was worth it anymore.

[enkieke 53]

Waters are more calm.

The Plan was:

So you understand my reaction, my first time posting in a blog/forum. I was going more for a less-profi point of start. The Plan or idea was, some would bodder to anwer (i didnt know if anyone would), and maybe 80% or 90% of the answers would be to share those similar experiences, blow some steam together, and with luck a minor % might bringt technical information, or some experience of who had also a similar problem and found perhapps a loophole to make the paper work schneller.

 

The Landing (Context):

Bu i landed in a forum, where most of you are proffesional, steuer beraters, finance advicers. Didnt i?. Well i didn´t expect that either, even with the name Finance who would? if you go for the first time to a forum about cinematography, you dont really think you wil be talking with real filmmakers, but probably just people that likes to talk about the last movie they saw.

Some of you receive my answer like if i was going to your office, getting a profesional advice, and not thanking. I wonder now if that was the case, if that is what you meant with a free-ride at some moment?

Sarabyrd, Now i see that you put my post in "Finance" to try to help, you put it where the experts are. I didn´t see that then. I could not know it would be so proffesionaly oriented.

But again my thanks were always sincere. I was not ungrateful.

 

Things got-out-of-track:

I thanked the info you gave, " i did it sincerely, "but even when now i wish i keept the original text more general and not so specific", i was not attacking people that is doing their Job, and following the law, i was attacking, Yes, that people that has been rude. That could be more friendly and made some things more accesible or easy to understand.

So when i got, that i attack them,i thought Why? you where not there, you didn´t saw. why you take their side?

It felt like crashing against the same brick wall all over, and right or wrong, i reacted defensevly. I dont want to start all this again, please (all questions are answer) but so you understand my reaction, those of you that could have missunderstood. we were talking different things, i was talking "people and procedure", not Law. ...Again, i landed in an unexpected place.

Because of that, i did answer with certain annoyance, i admit, but i repeat "My thanks were always sincere". if i wrote something with capital letter, that was not sarcastic or equivalent to screaming, it was so it didnt pass unnoticed in my long texts.

 

Some people here later, has share as me, they had as well bad and some others good experiences. That was the plan, advice was welcome and thanks many times as well.

 

Learnings about forums:

I know now in a Forum/blog, is better not to speak, like you would to a friend in Facebook (only similar experience i have had). You have to do it, like if you get to the podium in front of a crowd, and by turns. Speaking to a large crowd, and later the next-one will speak.

 

I wish i had keep some information more general. Not so specific as i did. If it was possible i would re-edit some things.

Normally i philosophy a bit more with people, And share experiences, talk about ethics, philosophy.

And whats wrong with that? , with saying: Hey do you think the system is perfect as it is, or some things could be better, maybe more coordination between sections?, more capacitation in this gigantic company, probably even their own employies think many things could be better. ...Even if we write it in a forum, it wont change things, but why not?.

I see in the Brandenburger Gate, in Berlin, an average of 3 or more small and big demonstrations every day. Some are about human rights, (like yesterday, an ucranian group), other for political parties, some even to ask that laws be change, last week there was a group that wants to change the German Flag for a more nordic design. I would never go to them, and insult their Ideals as stuphid or call them dumb. Much less in a forum.

 

My posts now are rated: -22 or -11. I found that funny.

But i also understand the appealing of it, it is like a fallen three that invites more to keep coming and taking wood out of it.

It doesnt help to emphatise, but i thank those who did.

 

Good Day.

[sneaker 871]

 

I wish i had keep some information more general. Not so specific as i did. If it was possible i would re-edit some things.

Normally i philosophy a bit more with people, And share experiences, talk about ethics, philosophy.

And whats wrong with that? , with saying: Hey do you think the system is perfect as it is, or some things could be better, maybe more coordination between sections?, more capacitation in this gigantic company, probably even their own employies think many things could be better. ...Even if we write it in a forum, it wont change things, but why not?.

I think this is the problem. Asking for advice and asking for consolation/agreement/empathy/political discussion should be kept in different threads. In general on this forum some answers hold good advice but thread starters will turn angry because what they are really looking for is empathy. "How can you defend the German way?", "Don't you think it's morally wrong?", "It was different in my home country XYZ" etc.

Keep those two separate. One thread for advice, one thread for opinions. You can't change the German laws or customs, don't argue about them if you really want advice.

[jignanavani 1]

Heyyy, did you find any solution to your problem with AOK.

[Ghendosrom 0]

Hello, I wonder if someone could give me am advise. I came to Germany in February andvstarted my work, the employer opened an BKK insurance for me. After two months, I moved to another land and changed my job. I did not cancel the insurance with BKK, because I never signed the contract with them. The new employer registered me with AOK, and since April I am an AOK member, signed the contract, have the card. Now I received a letter from BKK saying my stay with AOK is not legal and I have to go back to yhem for 18 months. What can be done? Is it really illegal? Can BKK charge me for the period I was with AOK? Thank you.

 

[Starshollow 6,070]

Yes, it is legal. and correct.

 

because of your employment, you became, apparently, a compulsory public insurance member. After you ended your first employment and "move to another land" (you mean another one of the 16 different German states, right?) you still remained with the BKK (which one? there are dozens of different BKKs!)  as a voluntary member. health insurance in Germany is required for everyone and it can only be terminated under special rules and circumstances. 5 min research here on Toytown will give you ample information and case studies with regards to that...

 

Anyway: you continued to be insured with BKK all the way. Without formal cancellation, this did not end. And as long as you remain with in the realm of public health insurances, you can indeed only switch from one to another (by giving two month notice, btw) after 18 months.

So, forward the BKK letter to AOK (and to your new employer/HR) so that they can see that you were still insured by BKK. they might be able to straighten this out amongst themselves between the BKK and the AOK.

 

Cheerio

 

I am a professional independent insurance broker, financial adviser, and authorised advertiser. Contact me.

[Ghendosrom 0]

Thank you very much for your advise. I was insured by BKK  Scheufelen. They just sent me a letter notifying thay the have informed my current employer and AOK and asked me to fill in the membership forms.