Probezeit with illness problems

61 posts in this topic

Good evening TT,

 

I am a little confused on the German working laws and require some help if possible. I have been at a job (Productline) almost 6 months on probezeit. Since changing from being a cleaner(1 years contract and no illness related problems or dissmisal) to a productline helper. I have not been very well and have already suffered one work related accident and 2 other forms of illness in the current role. The latest is my main concern to be honest. I am suffering with a shoulder problem and have to use my physical strength for the job. I had informed my employer of the condition and already seeked medical attention for this and been given medication and injection. The problem is being aggravated by the type of work i am doing and could be progressively worse to the point i may need an operation on my shoulder.

 

My questions are:

 

1) Can i be dismissed on medical grounds before or after probezeit? Would the employer need to give notice period and a reason?

 

2) If i was to consider voluntarily leaving my job on medical grounds. Would this cause a problem with the arbeitsamt?

 

3) if the worse case scenario. Would i need to apply for ABG 1 or Sickness entitlement?

 

I feel so bad that i have become ill in this job and lost all ability to be positive even though i am pushing myself along to do this.

 

Thanks

Sneaks

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During the Probezeit they can fire you without having to give any reason. After that they can only fire you for health reasons if they can prove that it is going to get worse. They could of course find other reasons, e.g. betriebliche Grunde (claiming that there is not enough work to justify the position.) Do you have a Betriebsrat? I left the last company with a Aufhebungsvertrag and was able to explain it to the Arbeitsagentur by saying that the fact that the company wanted to get rid of me was incompatible with my state of health. So I got Arbeitslosengeld from day 1. If you leave voluntarily you would normally have a Sperrzeit of 3 months, i.e. no Arbeitslosengeld for that time. If your medical situation cannot be solved you could apply for disability status, depending on how bad your condition is.

 

Feel free to contact me for further information.

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You would not have to leave your job voluntarily because of sickness. If the worst happens and you have to have an operation, you can be off sick until you are better. We had a guy where I work who fell and hurt his shoulder, tore something, had to have an operation and was off for 6 months. After getting better, he came back and they had him work 4 hrs. a day for a while to get back into shape and now he is fine.

 

If you don't get better and your doctor says you can not do this job any more, you can work with the arbeitsamt about getting re-training. We had another guy where I work who was often off sick although I suspect it had more to do with being sick of the job than his state of health since his illness periods were usually before and after his planned vacations. At one point, he simply didn't come back and a couple of months later, I saw him in the office and he told me that arbeitsamt is paying for him to get trained as a bus driver and he needed some paperwork from the employer.

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If the job is making you ill, look for another one whilst still working as much as you can - if you cannot work due to a work-related illness, then get your doctor to write you off.

You might also want to talk to your doctor about the work situation and ask for his/her support, should you be laid-off and have to register unemployed/retrain.

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1) Can i be dismissed on medical grounds before or after probezeit? Would the employer need to give notice period and a reason?

 

If you cannot do the work you are employed to do, your employer can terminate your contract during or after the trail period. The employer must give a reason and adhere to the notice period of your contract.

 

2) If i was to consider voluntarily leaving my job on medical grounds. Would this cause a problem with the arbeitsamt?

 

Is your illness related to the accident at work that you mentioned? Did you give details about yout accident to the HR department? All accidents at work must be reported to the Berufsgenossenschaft within three days. This is very important in cases such as yours. Is your illness temporary or will your health improve after an operation? After a long illness or operation, it is possible to begin work again working a few hours a day until you are fully recovered (see LeonG's comment above)

 

If you are unable to do your work due to health reasons, ask you Doctor if he/she can certify that you will endager your health if you continue in your present job. Second step, make an appointment with someone from HR and explain your situation, show the certificate from your Dr and ask to be transferred to another deparment. Inform the Betriebsrat about this too. Would it be possible to go back to your old job?

 

If you cannot work at all at the moment get a sick note, do not consider leaving your job at this stage.

 

3) if the worse case scenario. Would i need to apply for ABG 1 or Sickness entitlement?

 

If your employer terminates your contract due to the reasons above, you should get unemployment benefit if you have aleady paid into the system. If not, you may be entitled to Hartz4 or Wohngeld etc.

 

Good luck.

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As to point 1 you are not entirely right, an employer can give an employee notice during the Probezeit without any reason whatsoever!

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thank you kindly all for the information you have provided.

 

I presume my employer does not need to give me a notice period before probezeit. Can they extend that time due to the sickness on a temporary measure. I.e other employee's taking holidays and not being fully staff for a period.

 

thanks

Sneaks

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@uncle nick what you say is true but they also have to give you 14 days notice.If you jack your job in you will not get any help albeit financial or otherwise for 3 months.You are only entitled to unemployment benefit if you have worked for at least 12 months.Otherwise you will have to apply for Arbeitslosengeld 2 which is Hartz 4 and they expect you to use up any savings you have before you get anything.

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thank you kindly all for the information you have provided.

 

I presume my employer does not need to give me a notice period before probezeit. Can they extend that time due to the sickness on a temporary measure. I.e other employee's taking holidays and not being fully staff for a period.

 

thanks

Sneaks

 

There are a couple of loopholes they could use to extend your probation period. One would be to lay you off before your probation period ends but use a longer notice like a couple of months rather than the 2 week minimum. The other, they could ask you to sign an aufhebungsvertrag where you agree to quit on some specific date after your probation period ends.

 

If they come to you and want you to sign something that you are not sure about, tell them that you are not willing to sign anything without reading it over first with a friend at your side. Ask to take it home first, then ask for advice on here. Sometimes it can suit the employer that you agree to quit so they don't have to pay you sick time or try to find grounds to get rid of you but this will of course affect you because if you have a medical problem, you are not getting paid for your sick days because you have quit and you will likely be barred from unemployment benefits for some time.

 

They would however have to do this before your probation period ends. If they don't do it, they can not legally lay you off without a reason. However, if you have a temporary contract, they are not obligated to renew it when it's up.

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@ Mik Dickinson: I got ALG 1 immediately after leaving with an "Aufhebungsvertrag" because I gave a good reason for leaving, but this was an exception to the 3 month rule.

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Hi guys, 

 

this is my first post and I will be concise.

 

i graduated 2 months back from the university and in Search of a professional job. However, in mean time I went to Human Resources company like Randstad and submitted my CV. They said I would be tested and gave me 6 months of probation contract, they sub-hired me to a logistic company. Frankly I never did hard labor job in life but continued doing it as an experience in life. I worked for 5 weeks now and took 2 leaves stating I am unable to work.

 

yesterday while I took my third leave to go the doctor I heard that out of 8 people in our group 5 people got fired. Employer tried to reach me on phone but as I am at doctor the whole day, they are unable to reach me.

 

Now, when I tried to get into the van for morning shift today, my 3 remaining colleagues said they tried to fire me and don’t know whether I am still employed.

 

I am enraged and went to the doctor first thing in the morning to ask for 6 weeks of sick leave. But the doctor said he can only provide 2 weeks now and will extend 4 more weeks after the initial 2 weeks.

 

I sent my sick slips by email, to which they replied me to come to office. Where I handed over in person my doctor notes. The guy took it and asked me to leave saying ok. Then suddenly Chief came and asked me to stay for a while.

 

Then they asked me to sign the aufhebungsvertrag starting the termination as Wednesday, when I last worked, to which I refused as I am eligible for 2 weeks of pay and asked them to give me Kündigung. Then left the place.

 

Now I have a doubt, as I didn’t send my doctor notes by registered mail and gave in hand, will they deny ever taking it ?? I have sent an email too right?

 

Then will I be eligible for 6 week pay of sick leave from my employer? 

 

I initially said to them after first day of job that I would leave in 2-3 months or as soon as I land in professional job. But did all this due to their unfair practices of firing people. 

 

Also, will employer take this grudge and pay me late my work for this month ?? It’s actually expected on 10th of next month.

 

TIA

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The one which wonders me the most is how manpower companies think. When I saw their website there are some professional jobs matching my profile. But instead they send me to logistical hard labor job, same with other guy , who graduated with me. 

 

We joked to ourselves that they wanted to test our engineering skills by packing the items and loading/ unloading the packages:)

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Well the first problem is that during probezeit they can fire you for no reason.  So I'm afraid that there is nothing you can do and the way they treated you is not unfair according to the law!

 

If you will still get paid depends on the work and the contract.  If you get paid hourly, or daily and you do no more work then you will not get any more money.  

But you will be paid what you are due and should be paid according to the normal process.

 

As to their practices of assigning you that role, then I'm afraid you are at fault for accepting it.  They might well have plenty of candidates for the other role(s) you saw and they might judge that they are better fit than you are and it might just simply be that they can charge more money for the other candidates than they can for you.

 

I'm afraid that it is well known that such companies are rarely good employers, but it is a way to get a foot into the door with a company and/or build up experience, or fine for casual work.

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24 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

Well the first problem is that during probezeit they can fire you for no reason.  So I'm afraid that there is nothing you can do and the way they treated you is not unfair according to the law!

 

If you will still get paid depends on the work and the contract.  If you get paid hourly, or daily and you do no more work then you will not get any more money.  

But you will be paid what you are due and should be paid according to the normal process.

 

As to their practices of assigning you that role, then I'm afraid you are at fault for accepting it.  They might well have plenty of candidates for the other role(s) you saw and they might judge that they are better fit than you are and it might just simply be that they can charge more money for the other candidates than they can for you.

 

I'm afraid that it is well known that such companies are rarely good employers, but it is a way to get a foot into the door with a company and/or build up experience, or fine for casual work.

Thanks for the reply.

 

in my contract it’s mentioned that notice period is 2 weeks. Am I not even entitled to that pay ? Also I took sick leave will they not pay for 2 weeks sick leave?

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1 minute ago, Acrophobic said:

Thanks for the reply.

 

in my contract it’s mentioned that notice period is 2 weeks. Am I not even entitled to that pay ? Also I took sick leave will they not pay for 2 weeks sick leave?

 

In depends on the contract. 

 

For sick pay, I believe that in this case it is calculated based on the average over the past xx weeks/months, but I don't know the details so maybe somebody else on here can clarify.  I think a problem might be that you have not been there so long.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

In depends on the contract. 

 

For sick pay, I believe that in this case it is calculated based on the average over the past xx weeks/months, but I don't know the details so maybe somebody else on here can clarify.  I think a problem might be that you have not been there so long.

 

 

Hi before taking this decision I had 3 hours and researched briefly on the maximum benefits I can get and took the optimal decision.

 

here is the quote 

 

The Entgeltfortzahlung

This mouthful of a German word is the legal term for your right to payment when you are ill. You are entitled to Entgeltfortzahlung(continued payment) for a minimum of six weeks.

“Some employers will grant you more time than this. Three months is typical,” says Pfaffenberger. “If your entitlement is only the legal minimum there will be no mention of it in your work contract, but if you have a longer period this will be stated in the contract.”

You have a right to this payment even if you are just a part-time worker or a doing a mini job. The only condition is that you have already been in the job for at least four weeks.

 

https://www.thelocal.de/20190103/the-10-rules-you-need-to-know-if-you-get-sick-in-germany

 

i searched whether it applies to Probezeit time too and found that it is.

 

https://karrierebibel.de/krank-in-der-probezeit/

 

so, any dismissal during probation due to illness will be treated as due to illness according to court order unless otherwise strong contrary evidence is there.

 

after reading many pages I came to the conclusion. However, only doubt is s you said it applies to hourly wage companies and whether they say that I didn’t submit my doctor notes despite submitting it in person. I should have mailed them.   Hmm

 

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9 minutes ago, Acrophobic said:

Hi before taking this decision I had 3 hours and researched briefly on the maximum benefits I can get and took the optimal decision.

 

here is the quote 

 

The Entgeltfortzahlung

This mouthful of a German word is the legal term for your right to payment when you are ill. You are entitled to Entgeltfortzahlung(continued payment) for a minimum of six weeks.

 

But not if you're already fired. Your notice period is two weeks, after that it is definitely over. You don't get sick pay when you're no longer employed. 

 

9 minutes ago, Acrophobic said:

 

i searched whether it applies to Probezeit time too and found that it is.

 

https://karrierebibel.de/krank-in-der-probezeit/

 

so, any dismissal during probation due to illness will be treated as due to illness according to court order unless otherwise strong contrary evidence is there.

 

Nope, it doesn't say that. It says there can be (!) reasons that make a dismissal unlawful. However, in order to determine this, you must take legal action against the dismissal. 

 

 

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I did Zeitarbeit when I first came to Germany 10 yrs ago. Have you seen the Flintstones where they have these little birds or lizards doing stupid jobs around the kitchen, maybe as a can opener and they look up and say "well, it's a living"? Well that's Zeitarbeit in a nutshell. It's a mcjob. They rarely care about your qualifications, they will put you where they need you, they don't pay very much, they mess you about a bit, especially in the beginning. If you are good, they are a bit better. Still, you shouldn't take it too seriously. If they want to fire you, they will with two weeks notice as is the law. You are on probation so they don't even need a reason. If you want another job like this, you can have one in about 5 minutes at the next agency. However if you have qualifications for something better you should definitely look for something better.

 

As for being sick 3 times in a 5 week period that's considered excessive in Germany and I think any boss would contemplate whether to continue your probation as your health might get even worse once you've passed it.

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6 minutes ago, someonesdaughter said:

 

But not if you're already fired. Your notice period is two weeks, after that it is definitely over. You don't get sick pay when you're no longer employed. 

 

...

 

Yes, exactly.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, someonesdaughter said:

 

But not if you're already fired. Your notice period is two weeks, after that it is definitely over. You don't get sick pay when you're no longer employed. 

 

 

Nope, it doesn't say that. It says there can be (!) reasons that make a dismissal unlawful. However, in order to determine this, you must take legal action against the dismissal. 

 

 

 

Hi,

 

thanks for the reply.

 

the thing is mostly the employer is looking for aufhebungsvertrag not Kündigung, so he never gives one.

 

same in my case, he is unable to inform me on paper or phone. When I emailed the office the new employee there asked me to come and handover the doctor slip. I went and gave while returning Chief came and asked me to sit for few minutes and offered aufhebungsvertrag. To which I refused and said he must give Kündigung and today is 20th and you are asking to terminate on 18th which is not possible. Also, I said that as I already presented sick leave in email and person . I am incapacitated to take decisions at this juncture so he can give Kündigung but I will not sign anything.

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