Getting fired with an unlimited contract

91 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Thanks for the replies, my friend finds them encouraging although the lawyer fee is scary .

How much money would he get if the firing and Abmahnung is illegal in court ? 

One last question, if he had 20 days of holiday left, will he get something for them in case of the immediate firing ?

This would help him for sure ... but I suppose not .

 

 

If your friend wins the case then technically the person can go back to work and all the salary in the mean time has to be paid, so if the person was 12 months at home all those 12 months would be paid.

 

The problem is that usually, specially if the company is not that big, that is not a good scenario for both parties because the relationship is damaged.   So the employer might bully the employee, i.e. worst situations can be to put the person in a room alone with just a desk a a seat and ask the person to sit there and do nothing.   This is already torture levels, because not doing anything is very difficult, and falling sleep might be very bad.   Decent big companies would of course never do something like that, and if they lose the case they would just transfer the guy somewhere else into another department.

 

The normal outcome in these situations in medium and big size companies is to settle with money.   Very small companies have more lineage when firing employees.

 

The remaining holidays must be paid.

 

What would I do if I were your friend?   I would hire a lawyer, do not accept the cancellation of the contract and sit tight.  I wouldn't get any job until the case is solved, and I would be living from my unemployment insurance (ALG1), because that's what it is for, change lifestyle accordingly to the new income if there are no savings.    I would however start looking for a new job, go to interviews, etc, just do not sign a new contract yet.  And if the new prospects ask about it I would be honest and say why I do not want to sign the contract just yet.   And if you find a new job that it is worth to take immediately then go to your lawyer and tell him about it and ask for a settlement more favorable to your ex-employer so that everyone can close the page and move on.

 

Your friend has to consider as well that any compensation money he gets has tax implications, which are a bit complicated as well.  

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Your friend can start a Klage against the termination/employer at the local Arbeitsgericht. (At least in Munich).

They will set up a negotiation/mediation between the employee and employer and if mediation fails the case can go before a judge to decide if they followed the rules (on both sides).

This is free in Munich. You can go without legal representation but that would be unwise. However the process is free.

A letter/Klage gets sent to the employer who usually quickly offers a better deal to the employee

If there is any doubt about the legality of the firing they will make a better offer. Even if the firing was for cause they might offer more as it a pain for them to document/prove everything.

If you go before a judge the best case scenario is you get your job back. Getting your lawyer paid for is usually not possible.

 

http://www.arbg-mannheim.de/pb/,Lde/Startseite

 

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Thanks for advices, my friend says they are of great help as he is quite depressed now .

6-12 months to live from unemployment and pay also the lawyer, doesn't look so great to me .

He started to look for jobs right from today ... so can't understand comment about not accepting offers ... 

At least he gets the holiday paid that's a good point and will help a lot  .

The company is a corporation, probably money is not an issue, so they can delay the Klage forever, this is also quite scary .

 

Just to confirm once more, for sure he doesn't get his job back as he was fired both types .

In case he wins he gets salary back for the months that he will not be paid + some extra which should cover the lawyer .

If he loses or company won't settle he will not get anything + he has to pay lawyer .

Is this too pessimistic view ?

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Thanks for advices, my friend says they are of great help as he is quite depressed now .

6-12 months to live from unemployment and pay also the lawyer, doesn't look so great to me .

 

From which country your friend comes from?  I see it as a not so bad situation.   Unemployment insurance is 2/3 of what he received when he was working, they pay for your health insurance and you receive it for 12 months.   Where I come from we get nothing when we are fired.

 

The only downside is not having legal insurance, which only costs 200 EUR a year.   But that was your friend own fault.   And maybe not having savings, again own fault.

 

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He started to look for jobs right from today ... so can't understand comment about not accepting offers ... 

 

Well if he starts working then he is in a weak position because your ex-employer knows he doesn't really want the job back.  And the judge sees it as there was not much "damage" to your friend because he found a job quite fast, so maybe he either does not win or gets very little money out of the whole thing.   That's why I recommended settling before for something more convenient to the ex-employer.   Then the chaos with health insurance and taxes is quite big because a bunch of things have to be undone depending on which side wins the case.

 

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At least he gets the holiday paid that's a good point and will help a lot  .

 

The holidays is just 20 days.   The big picture here is walking out with 6 months of salary, maybe even more.  And anyway, what's the big deal with those holidays?  he will be getting unemployment benefits which should be more that enough to live comfortable.

 

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The company is a corporation, probably money is not an issue, so they can delay the Klage forever, this is also quite scary .

 

Believe me, it is not in their interest to delay it.   It is actually in your interest to delay it.   Except if they had good reasons to fire your friend.  

 

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Just to confirm once more, for sure he doesn't get his job back as he was fired both types .

 

I told you already, if he wins he might get his job back.  I even went to explain you why that may or may not be a good scenario depending of how your company takes it.

 

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In case he wins he gets salary back for the months that he will not be paid + some extra which should cover the lawyer .

 

This has been answered already.

 

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If he loses or company won't settle he will not get anything + he has to pay lawyer .

Is this too pessimistic view ?

 

If no one settles and he loses he walks out with nothing and has to pay the lawyer and court expenses.   But that would be only if there was a valid reason to fire him.    If it is a big corporation then they can't just fire somebody without a VERY good reason, because big companies can't just choose one person to fire, there are rules and procedures to follow, and in some cases they dictate who is the one who should be fired.

 

What was the reason for the termination of the contract?

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If you fire somebody you have to give a reason. And it must be a serious reason.

Fraud, theft, giving internal information to a competitor, sexual harresment, bullying, insulting the employer and the like.

Otherwise they won't have a chance at court.

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5 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

The reason was not given explicitly in the paper .

 

 

OK, it is not required to have the reason in the termination, but later on they will have to come with one and document it.  Your lawyer will help you with this.    They have to document as well why there was no Sozialauswahl (why your friend won the lottery instead of choosing the person with less social points).

 

Is your friend a Tarif-employee?   Is there a works council there?  Are there any extra negotiated conditions for firing people on top of the ones in the tarif contract?   This is all information that is relevant.

 

The most important thing for your friend to understand is that termination on the spot is a serious thing here, so it only happens if he did something really big, like stealing or molesting colleagues, or something in that caliber, so he has to be 100% sure he didn't do anything like that.

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https://www.finanztip.de/fristlose-kuendigung/

 

" Für eine außerordentliche Kündigung ist – im Gegensatz zur ordentlichen Kündigung – ein Kündigungsgrund erforderlich. Eine Frist muss hingegen nicht eingehalten werden. Deshalb wird die außerordentliche Kündigung auch häufig als fristlose Kündigung bezeichnet. "

 

For a termination without notice you need a very good reason!

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Yes, you need a reason, but it is not required to be in the termination letter.    

 

https://www.fristlosekuendigung.com/arbeitsrecht/kuendigung-ohne-grund/

 

" Im Allgemeinen ist gesetzlich keine Verpflichtung festgelegt, dass im fristlosen Kündigungsschreiben eine Begründung für die Kündigung angegeben werden muss. Dabei spielt es keine Rolle, ob die fristlose Kündigung vom Arbeitgeber oder -nehmer ausgeht. "

 

 

 

As I said before, the next step would be his lawyer to request the explanations.

 

 

Edit:  Your own link says the same I said.

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Because the lawyer asked for a very high honorary to go to court and my friend can't afford to pay, he closed the mandate of the lawyer and will notsearch for another one because of the high costs .

The employer didn't send any Arbeitsbescheinigung so no ALG for now also ...

Is there any institution where at least he can make a complaint about what happened ?

 

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Arbeitsgericht. Tell your friend to bring someone who speaks German. They start the Klage for free and you go into negotiations/mediation. 

 

If the employer is a complete jerk, you have very little to lose. Except they might give a really poor Zeugnis.

 

However, if your employer thinks he can get away with it, they might not offer much. A foreigner, limited language skills, no lawyer...

 

The window to do something is very short (3 weeks) after termination. So you or they might have missed that boat.

 

Or he can plead his case to the Bundesagentur people, but they want documents.

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9 minutes ago, mako1 said:

 

The window to do something is very short (3 weeks) after termination.

 

And because of that, that boat has sailed. bogdan joined this thread on Juli 23, after he got the termination. Since then, he's turned a deaf ear to every advice he got ...

 

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How he can plead his case to the Bundesagentur ?

The lawyer got him sick because of the stress, that's why he gave up ...

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On 7/25/2018, 8:34:39, Krieg said:

Probably the best case scenario would be to contest the termination, and then negotiate with the employer and get some compensation, maybe 4 to 6 months of salary.  

Hi Krieg,

 

If someone was on tax group 3 with much higher income than the spouse. After filing the Klage and speculating a compensation of 4 to 6 months of salary,  should this person keep the tax group 3 or better change to tax group 5?

 

Thank you for sharing any information. 

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Hi everyone,

 

New case/scenario here for 2019.

My boss just talked to me today and asked me nicely to resign or look for new opportunities in the next 3 months.

Everything was just verbal, and he talked to me in private together with an associate. 

The reason he gave was that - The projects were too big for me, and he was concerned that I'm not able to handle it well anf it is too much for me. 

All that he said was the complete opposite of all of my colleagues assessments. This whole thing actually made me sad.

I already planned to resign from this company, but further than the date that he gave.

Anyhow, I have not signed anything yet since it just happened today. I even said that I am willing to improve things if ever. But he seems very serious with it. 

I still have my full holidays left for the year, since I dedicated myself working for all the projects.

 

I read the previous replies from the thread, maybe mine is less complicated since my jerk boss asked me nicely. All that I told him was that 3 months is too hort for me to prepare to look for things. He didn't reply to this but firmly said that I should try and they're willing to write a recommendation letter for me. 

 

I wanna know your opinion on this and what could be the possible things that I can do asside from looking for a new job.

If I hire a lawyer, I feel like it would complicate things since the director asked me nicely (most of the time, he is not actually nice).

Regarding my rights, can I get something or demand for something financially? 

I'm really confused. Please help. :(

Thank you.

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Take the recommendation letter and look for a new job. Since your are still in good terms and if you show that you are actively looking for a new job the 3 months are not written in stone.

No lawyers or similar stuff. They will only make your future difficult.

Remember: You always meet twice in life!

May be in three years they are your customers or you are their.

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11 minutes ago, AnswerToLife42 said:

Take the recommendation letter and look for a new job. Since your are still in good terms and if you show that you are actively looking for a new job the 3 months are not written in stone.

No lawyers or similar stuff. They will only make your future difficult.

Remember: You always meet twice in life!

May be in three years they are your customers or you are their.

 

Thanks for the reply.

This is actually what is on my mind at the moment. I'm just afraid that 3 months in just too short for me. My boss then said those words that maybe in the future, I we will meet again..blablabla..(although I don't wanna work with him anymore).

If I am right, I can still get arbeitslosgehld for this situation right?

 

20 minutes ago, maxie said:

Do you have a works council? That would be your first address

 

Can I know what is a works councli? Do you mean an union? 

 

I'm wondering what others would do or respond to the situation... :/

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If you don't know what a works council is, then likely you don't have one.  But ask a colleague to be sure.

Basically you could describe them a type of local union.  They fulfil some similar roles to a union but they are normally only responsible for a single location of a company.  They are made up of your colleagues and are elected by the employees every few years and have the task to negotiate agreements between the company and the employees.  

One of the most common involve procedures and rights on how to handle job reductions and dismissal, hence why they would be first point of call for you.

 

If you want to negotiate more than 3 months termination then you can try to do this yourself, or else you will need to hire a lawyer.  But there is no guarantee that you will get more.  And there is always a chance that the company will just kick you out now and give you nothing.  Then you will have to go to a lawyer to get anything and it might take months (or even years!) before you see any compensation.

 

The wording of the letter will be important to determine if you get  arbeitslosgehld  immediately or have to wait 3 months (after termination).  So for this a lawyer is recommended. 

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