Getting fired with an unlimited contract

91 posts in this topic

Hi,

 

First, thanks for your help! I really tried to find an answer, with no results.

 

Almost a year ago I started a job with a 6 month probation period, which I have successfully passed a couple of months ago. Now I have an "unbefristet" contract, with a 2 months Kündigungsfrist.

 

From what I've read in other threads, the employer needs a "very good reason" to fire an employee who has an unlimited contract, but what does a "very good reason" mean? Could I be fired just because they don't have enough work for me? Or because I haven't performed well enough in the last months?

 

What would be a legal reason to fire somebody, apart from obvious things like committing a crime or bankruptcy of the company?

 

Thanks!

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you can get fired if the company proves that it can´t keep you for financial reasons, case in which the employees without kids, single and the newest in the company can get fired, after the ones in probezeit (they `fly` first). there´s a last in first out principle.

 

then there´s another stuff, after 3 written warnings (you sign you took note of them) then u can be fired in case you didn´t change your behaviour/finish the job or whatever the warnings were about.

 

another possibility is an Àuflösungsvertrag`- the cancelling of the contract, must be in theory agreed by both parts, but they can suggest you that it would be better to sign.

 

It is hard to get fired if u didn´t do anything wrong and your contract is unlimited, but they can practically find a way if they want to.

 

PS: I have no info about the contracts based on performance/profit/sales requirements, but I guess if u didn´t meet the expectations you can get fired, too.

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Legally, they'd have to have a reason to fire you. A grave reason like showing up drunk, threatening your boss or stealing something could be grounds for immediate dismissal. Otherwise 3 written warnings will do. Or if they have to lay people off because they don't have work.

 

They could however fire you for no reason just because and see if you sue. My current employer does that sometimes. Earlier this month, he fired a guy who'd been off sick for a month and he didn't think was really sick. He gave him 4 weeks notice to the end of the month and no reason why they were letting him go. Legally, he has no proof so he had no reason to fire the guy. If the guy sues, he may get compensation or win his job back if he wants it. I guess the boss is ready to take that chance.

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It is hard to get fired if u didn´t do anything wrong and your contract is unlimited, but they can practically find a way if they want to.

 

Very easy: if you violate at least one "rule" they can fire you with Sofortkündigung (immediate notice).

 

Recent case from the University of Bayreuth:

the head of Welcome Center was fired for not registering while going for lunch (that chip device which registers time of arrival and departure). No warnings were given, the boss just wanted to fire her and found such a possibility.

 

Case was taken to Arbeitsgericht but it couldn't do anything but ask the University to pay several months wage as a compensation.

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OK, thank you all for your reply!

 

So, what I get from all your responses is that people with an unlimited contract in a big company could get fired for the following reason:

 

* After 3 written warning: Normal

* If they do something illegal or socially inappropriate, like going drunk to work or threatening somebody: Also normal

* For "financial reasons": That's pretty ambiguous! Can they do that without declaring bankruptcy? Or if they are still hiring other people?

* Fire without a reason/bullying the employee to quit: Would a big multinational company take that risk?

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Bullying is rife. Happens all the time. Never worked in a place where there was none in Germany.

 

Have you already done something to make you ask these questions?

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@optimista I haven't been bullied and I haven't done anything wrong. It's just that I have three colleagues who have the same position as me, but they joined the company 2 months later, and they have all been terminated on the last day of their probation period, so I was worried if they can fire me as well.

 

I probably should have mentioned that on my original post. Sorry, I'm an idiot...

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Financial reasons would probably count as "betriebsbedingte Kuendigung", i.e. not enough work available or company close to bankruptcy.

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Fahnoubi, you successfully completed your probezeit. If they are willing to fire those others for poor performance at the end of the probezeit, you should feel confident that your work is viewed as, at minimum, satisfactory, if not better. If you are a tarif employee, you have all the protections of union and betriebsrat. If you ever feel like some meeting may be disciplinary in fashion, you have a right to request the presence of a betriebsrat member. However, from what you said I think you should feel confident about your performance! Chin up, man. They KEPT you!

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Some companies are more subtle and don't actually fire.

Just relocate; as in

"starting Monday your office is no longer in Frankfurt am Main but in Niederkreuzbruch"

It's then up to you to decide.

 

Sacking is possible due to : gross misconduct; theft (as in incorrect timesheets and expenses);

and there have been silly cases in the news where the cleaner was sacked for eating the biscuits

left in meeting rooms or the sandwich maker eating the last piece of ham as there was no more bread.

 

I'd go along with the previous posters - you're in! so enjoy it and further your career.

 

Unless is it like my employer at the moment looking to shed 20% of the workforce

in which case - anything goes!

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An employment contract is a contract between 2 parties, you as an employee can terminate it so why shouldnt`your your employer be allowed to do so also. Only if you ask does he have to give a reason. Read § 1 Absatz 3 Kündigungsschutzgesetz I remember being a listener in a Kündigungsschutz process in Hamburg Altona almost 25 years ago where the employer, a transport firm sought damages from his employee who left without giving proper notice. What,s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

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Well, this thread is getting a bit confusing.

 

Some people are saying that my contract could only get terminated for gross misconduct of if the company is close to bankruptcy, and others are saying the opposite: that if I can freely leave my job, "why shouldn't the employer be allowed" to fire me?

 

I guess I'll just be glad that I still have my job and stop over-worrying...

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Well, this thread is getting a bit confusing.

 

Some people are saying that my contract could only get terminated for gross misconduct of if the company is close to bankruptcy, and others are saying the opposite: that if I can freely leave my job, "why shouldn't the employer be allowed" to fire me?

 

I guess I'll just be glad that I still have my job and stop over-worrying...

 

OK, so here is the bottom line:

 

* If you do something serious (showing up drunk for example) you can be fired.

* If you do not do something serious then you can be terminated as "betriebsbedingte Kundigung". This means that there is a business reason such as no work, closing a your department etc. There are some rules such as the famous social ranking but at the end of the day companies can often construct conditions such that they can use this to get rid of people if they wish to.

 

A key point though is that you are asking the wrong question. The company can fire you any time they like, the real question is what are the conditions under which you can sue them for doing so and what are you likely to get if you win.

 

The companies where I have worked have typically seen it as a financial question. How much will it cost (either as abfindung or as legal settlement decided by a court) to give someone the bullet. This is probably not legal in a strict sense, but seems to be the reality.

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Another way to get rid of someone would be to ask a business associate to lure them away with a supposedly lucrative offer to start work for them. The person concerned would give notice himself and then begin work with the new employer who can fire the person after a week during the "Probezeit". The previous employer would then compensate the friend for the one weeks`salary, a lot cheaper than going to court. The trick is as old as mankind.

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Kündigen wir ... fristlos, hilfsweise ordentlich zu nächsten Kündigungstermin : 31.10.2018 

 

What can you understand from this, what type of Kündigung is this ? And what is the meaning of the date ?

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4 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Kündigen wir ... fristlos, hilfsweise ordentlich zu nächsten Kündigungstermin : 31.10.2018 

 

What can you understand from this, what type of Kündigung is this ?

 

Fired without notice, alternatively to the next regular termination date (31.10.2018).

 

4 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

 

 And what is the meaning of the date ?

 

The definite last working day. 

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Thanks, the person who got was told they don't want him to be at work anymore . 

Is he still payed until 31.10.2018 ?

This is the confusing part, is this an ordentlich or außerordentlich Kündigung ?

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10 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Thanks, the person who got was told they don't want him to be at work anymore . 

 

Tell that person to lawyer up then. And tell him to inform the Arbeitsamt within 3 days that he will be laid off, so or so.

 

10 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

Is he still payed until 31.10.2018 ?

 

Not if he accepts the termination without notice.

 

10 minutes ago, bbogdanmircea said:

This is the confusing part, is this an ordentlich or außerordentlich Kündigung ?

 

Without notice is ausserordentlich, to the next regular termination date (31.10.2018) is ordentlich.

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