Vegan coming for dinner

330 posts in this topic

@Krieg You will never find vegetarian behaviour acceptable.

 

I've seen you post in the past that vegetarians confronted with only french fries on the menu who do not complain are hypocrites because that's so unhealthy, but if they do complain they're drama queens. You did make those statements on different threads, but it really doesn't leave any space for vegetarians to act in a manner acceptable to you.

 

Regarding your Muslim example. 2/3 of the menu will not contain pork. So the Muslim has a wide choice. When the menu only has cheese sandwiches, or french fries your vegetarian friends feel rather left down, and wonder why couldn't he have chosen a restaurant not as disastrous for vegetarians. That's what my example was meant to highlight.

 

The meat eater being disappointed because the meat menu in the restaurant chosen by his vegetarian friends was abysmal. But the vegetarians drag him there because they can get slightly better salads than in his place of choice where he will get awesome meat. And then they wonder what his problem is. A ham sandwich is meat. You like meat. It's meat. What's your problem?

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A Muslim in a non-Muslim restaurant is limited to vegetarian food and fish / seafood. All other meat even if it is not pork it is not Halal.

And french fries are indeed unhealthy, so choosing them over other options because of health reasons does not really make sense. Same with people who decide to be vegatarians because of health reasons and they smoke and drink 2 bottles of wine a day.

Of course I have no problem with 99.9999% of the vegetarians, plenty of my friends are vegetarians and I like and enjoy vegetarian food. I just pointed out a couple of small things that do not really make sense, at least from my point of view.

I am a meat eater and have no problem with vegetarian food, I do not really know why you think meat eaters must eat meat in every meal. I just had 2 slices of spinach pizza for lunch.

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6 hours ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

No you bloody don't. You know some pescetarians that mislabel themselves as vegetarians who eat fish.

And the problem with this: If people meet 1 "fish eating vegetarian" and 99 "real vegetarians" They will ask the 99 real vegetarians why they don't eat fish.

 

I know a vegetarian who eats fish. Vegetarians eat fish. Why are you being so difficult?

BTW strict vegetarian is often used to imply vegan.

 

 

 

See, you can call me pescetarian if you want. Truth is, I hardly ever eat fish. It's sim,ply -- er -- simpler to call myself vegetarian, because then people understand that I don't eat meat. I don't like the idea of dividing people up int smaller and smaller groups according to what they eat -- the general idea is OK for me. Sometimes, when invited,  I am asked, would you eat fish? and I say yes. It makes life easier for them,. if they want to cook, say salmon, and everyone eats it. I don't know why I eat fish. It simply doesn't disgust me the way meat does -- I think it's the blood, mostly, that disgusts me, and the sight of raw flesh.

As I said -- it's not a religion. You can call me what you want; it's just a label to help others. I don't "identify" as vegetarian or pescatarian. 

5 hours ago, fraufruit said:

Why is there a big argument every time vegetarian/vegan is mentioned on TT in any context?

 

shrugs. because some people have a problem with it?

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When I was a vegetarian I discerned between wearing leather and eating a cow threefold: first, the leather shoes or bag (not a belt or god forbid jacket) were from the body of an animal so utilized once, and not several animals over and over again merely for my nourishment, when indeed there are only a world full of other (preferable) things people can use to feed themselves. Second, the item in question had no comparable vegetarian replacement: a pair of Doc Martens are waterproof, form eventually to your foot precisely, and potentially last decades, outperforming a shoe made from synthetic materials in every way, in turn reducing the carbon footprint made by constantly replacing disposable canvas or plastic shoes. Third, one likes to believe a leather cow was already old and pastured, but that might have been wishful thinking.

 

Re the inevitable discussion: among strangers online with no incentive not to offend their fellow participants, it, along with circumcision and Islam is a guaranteed polarizer. Nothing more, nothing less.

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14 minutes ago, dessa_dangerous said:

Third, one likes to believe a leather cow was already old and pastured, but that might have been wishful thinking.

 

If that were true, your Dr. Martens would have looked more like these boots:

 

 

MMMboot.jpg.0bfd9d2842b2f255a4d407ae2597

 

 

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On 10/7/2016, 7:09:25, arunadasi said:

 

 

See, you can call me pescetarian if you want. Truth is, I hardly ever eat fish. It's sim,ply -- er -- simpler to call myself vegetarian, because then people understand that I don't eat meat. I don't like the idea of dividing people up int smaller and smaller groups according to what they eat -- the general idea is OK for me. Sometimes, when invited,  I am asked, would you eat fish? and I say yes. It makes life easier for them,. if they want to cook, say salmon, and everyone eats it. I don't know why I eat fish. It simply doesn't disgust me the way meat does -- I think it's the blood, mostly, that disgusts me, and the sight of raw flesh.

As I said -- it's not a religion. You can call me what you want; it's just a label to help others. I don't "identify" as vegetarian or pescatarian. 

 

shrugs. because some people have a problem with it?

 

Oh dear, if I'm fighting with arunadasi about vegetarianism something is wrong.

 

Arunadasi is a vegetarian because she is disgusted by meat. She however enjoys fish, leather etc which are not vegetarian by the strictest interpretations of vegetarianism.

 

I'm a vegetarian, because I don't want to kill animals or fish. Or I could simply say I subscribe to the least harm principle as magnificently described by Dessa below.

I do however enjoy cheese, wine, leather, silk like Arunadasi. I don't eat fish (except for the issinglas in the wine I consume)

 

Eggs add a layer of confusion. Some vegetarians would refuse them because they're a chicken's miscarriage. Others would eat them because no animal died.

I don't eat them because I'm allergic to them.

 

In the dietary world there are precise definitions.

 

pescetarians: No meat

ovo lacto vegetarians: No meat or fish

lacto vegetarians: No meat, fish or eggs

vegans: No meat, fish, eggs, or dairy.

raw vegan: Not heated above 60 (or 40)

 

When people say vegetarian they normally mean ovo lacto.

In fact come to think of it I don't describe myself as a vegetarian. I say I don't eat meat or fish.

 

It's because of conversations like this.

 

I'm vegetarian.

Would you like a salad?

They have a great fish menu here.

I don't eat fish

But you said you were vegetarian

This vegetarians doesn't eat fish.

But vegetarians eat fish. I knew a vegetarian who eats fish...

 

On 10/8/2016, 9:12:36, dessa_dangerous said:

When I was a vegetarian I discerned between wearing leather and eating a cow threefold: first, the leather shoes or bag (not a belt or god forbid jacket) were from the body of an animal so utilized once, and not several animals over and over again merely for my nourishment, when indeed there are only a world full of other (preferable) things people can use to feed themselves. Second, the item in question had no comparable vegetarian replacement: a pair of Doc Martens are waterproof, form eventually to your foot precisely, and potentially last decades, outperforming a shoe made from synthetic materials in every way, in turn reducing the carbon footprint made by constantly replacing disposable canvas or plastic shoes.

 

This completely describes my mindset.

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I'm an ovo lacto vegetarian who avoids leather and doesn't drink wine.  I do eat wild rabbit in the UK because it's an agricultural pest and would end up in landfill otherwise, but that's such an edge-case that I simply describe myself as vegetarian.  I certainly wouldn't assume that any other vegetarians ate rabbit, and I generally check specifics when we have people for dinner.

 

I did go to a work do once that included a fish'n'chip dinner. The vegetarian option was chicken'n'chips.  I wish I was joking...

 

 

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12 minutes ago, RelativeDimensions said:

I'm an ovo lacto vegetarian who avoids leather and doesn't drink wine.  I do eat wild rabbit in the UK because it's an agricultural pest and would end up in landfill otherwise,

 

 

Eat your enemies! :D

 

I'll take my coat. ;)

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8 hours ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

 

Oh dear, if I'm fighting with arunadasi about vegetarianism something is wrong.

B)

Quote

 

When people say vegetarian they normally mean ovo lacto.

In fact come to think of it I don't describe myself as a vegetarian. I say I don't eat meat or fish.

 

It's because of conversations like this.

 

 

 

This is how and why I became a vegetarian who (occasionally) will eat fish:

 

In 1971 I found myself with friends on a boat on the Amazon (river, not internetmarket, which did not yet exist). It was a ten day trip from Manaus in Brazil, to Lecicia in Colombia.

The menu was: meat for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

No vegetables, no fruit. For 10 days. Just meat and white bread or rice.

After ten days I felt bad. I didn't know why. I just felt bad.

I ad my friends travelled after that down to Lima, where we ended up staying with a Swiss guy called Pedro, in a house near the Puente do los Suspiros. Pedro was not only a vegetarian; he was a great cook. He cooked us wonderful colourful juicy meals of fruit and vegetables. I died and went to heaven, and felt just wonderful.

 

When shopping in the South American markets I would see whole carcesses of cattle, skinned. Blood everywhere. I could not imagine ever again eating a cow. And I never did, or any other mammal. 

 

This  is how I began to eat fish again:

Later that year I went with a French woman called Ghislaine down to the Ecuadorian coast, to a lonely beach near the island of San Pedro. We stayed in an empty beach hut and didn't have much food, and there was no way to get back to San Lorenzo, where we could buy food. We wanted to stay longer. Every day, some fishermen came to the beach to fish and they offered us fish, and cooked it for us over an open fire. We were hungry and we ate.

I found that I really liked the taste of fish.

Later, Ghislaine went back to our mountain home in Ibarra and I went to stay on the island San Pedro with the family of one of the fishermen. They cooked fish every day, and I have never eaten such delicious fish, cooked in coconut milk over an open fire outside in a pot covered with banana leaves.

I don't often eat fish. But when I am invited and I know it would make it easier for my hosts, I do.

When I was in Guyana recently someone cooked for me a fish called Banga Mary. It was delicious!

 

Basically, I don't think the killing of animals for food is immoral; most animals do it for survival, and as long as humans do it in a responsible way, without suffering for the animal, it is morally OK in my view.

 

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35 minutes ago, arunadasi said:

Basically, I don't think the killing of animals for food is immoral; all animals do it, and as long as humans do it in a responsible way, without suffering for the animal, it is morally OK in my view.

Unfortunately though, more often than not this condition isn't fulfilled.

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8 hours ago, RelativeDimensions said:

I'm an ovo lacto vegetarian who avoids leather and doesn't drink wine.  

 

Why no wine?

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8 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Why no wine?

No alcohol at all, to be honest, although I gather wine is cleared with isinglas.

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10 hours ago, RelativeDimensions said:

No alcohol at all, to be honest, although I gather wine is cleared with isinglas.

 

Not always, but often. It is also sometimes clarified with gelatine, derivatives of egg or milk (casein), or sometimes even non-animal products!

If I know gelatine was used, I won't buy the wine. Just like I won't eat gummy bears, wine gums, etc. It seems that French wine is the one that most commonly contains gelatine, but maybe they are just clearer with the labelling.

 

20 hours ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

When people say vegetarian they normally mean ovo lacto.

In fact come to think of it I don't describe myself as a vegetarian. I say I don't eat meat or fish.

 

I stopped identifying as vegetarian or even pescetarian a while ago. If it is necessary I tell people that the only meat I eat is fish. Then, when inevitably prompted, I enter into the explanation of why fish is meat, and why I eat it anyway.

 

Generally, though, I just try to eat as sustainably as possible. The "as possible" means I'll sometimes eat things I know aren't really sustainable, but rarely.

 

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10 hours ago, RelativeDimensions said:

No alcohol at all, to be honest, although I gather wine is cleared with isinglas.

 

I only discovered that wine contains animal products recently when I bought a red wine labeled BIO VEGAN.  More vegan labels have appeared on bio wines recently. Apparently, until the BSE crisis, red wines also contained bull's blood which is now banned in the EU...not sure about other countries. 

 

I also didn't know that Parmesan cheese contains sheep gut. I'm not quite vegetarian yet, we don't eat mammals though do still eat fish and limited poultry. 

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2 hours ago, emkay said:

I also didn't know that Parmesan cheese contains sheep gut. I'm not quite vegetarian yet, we don't eat mammals though do still eat fish and limited poultry. 

 

A huge amount of cheese contains rennet, and the harder the cheese the more likely it is.

 

When you're buying cheese, the German term is Lab. As an enzyme that curdles milk, It can either be animal derived (what you described above), or it can be from microbial sources. If the packaging just says Lab, you can probably bet that it isn't vegetarian. If it doesn't say anything, it is a bit more difficult, so it is all about your own judgement and how much it bothers you.

 

If it is Italian and has a protected name, it contains animal-based rennet. I get quite upset with restaurants labelling things as vegetarian when they also boast that it contains gran padarno. That said, I'll sometimes order it anyway these days. Although I'd never buy it for my own cooking. In the UK, Sainsbury's do a decent parmesan alternative ("Sainsbury's basic hard cheese") but now and then it seems to stop being vege for a while. My guess is they have several people producing it.

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15 minutes ago, plantwhisperer said:

 

A huge amount of cheese contains rennet, and the harder the cheese the more likely it is.

 

When you're buying cheese, the German term is Lab. As an enzyme that curdles milk, It can either be animal derived (what you described above), or it can be from microbial sources. If the packaging just says Lab, you can probably bet that it isn't vegetarian. If it doesn't say anything, it is a bit more difficult, so it is all about your own judgement and how much it bothers you.

 

If it is Italian and has a protected name, it contains animal-based rennet. I get quite upset with restaurants labelling things as vegetarian when they also boast that it contains gran padarno. That said, I'll sometimes order it anyway these days. Although I'd never buy it for my own cooking. In the UK, Sainsbury's do a decent parmesan alternative ("Sainsbury's basic hard cheese") but now and then it seems to stop being vege for a while. My guess is they have several people producing it.

 

I think you mean vegan here. Most vegetarians aren't that fussed about such matters.

Indian vegetarians certainly aren't; and in South India at least, vegetarian is the default. Restaurants are vegetarian, unless they identify as "Non-Veg". I've never ever heard a vegetarian (and I've been one for over 45 years) getting upset about  rennet. I think  you should self-identify as vegan, rather than vegetarian.

To me, the "getting upset" is more harmful than the actual ingredient.

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On 10/6/2016, 1:23:20, arunadasi said:

 

I always wanted to know the reason why vegans are automatically intolerable bores?

The rest of the thread goes someway to proving that

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On 10/8/2016, 9:12:36, dessa_dangerous said:

the item in question had no comparable vegetarian replacement: a pair of Doc Martens

 

I don't know how long ago you were vegetarian, but alternatives to leather are becoming more frequent these days - including Doc Martens:

http://www.drmartens.com/uk/c/vegan

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