Vegan coming for dinner

330 posts in this topic

23 hours ago, RelativeDimensions said:

There's some debate about that, apparently. I know some vegans won't eat fungi because they aren't plants.

 

Somebody told me this in a restaurant a couple of weeks ago, and I thought it was either a bad joke or a misunderstanding. I'm amazed to hear that those people really exist!

 

20 hours ago, arunadasi said:

 

I've never met anyone like this. I myself have had problems sometimes finding suitable food in restaurants; Germany used to be light years behind the rest of the Western world in this but is catching up. I used to always just order the salad plate, but without complaining. Once, though, I ordered a salad plate and they brought me: Wurstsalat!

 

 

Definitely! When I moved here, finding food in restaurants was sometimes challenging and there were hardly any veggie sausages etc. in supermarkets. Now the restaurants have more choice than before, and the supermarket choice is larger than in the UK (although the choice of flavour, not so much).

There is just one restaurant I still struggle to find veggie food at. Whenever I go, I order what sounds like a veggie dish. So far, every time it has turned up exactly as described, plus Speck. I ate it anyway (I'm more flexible when I eat out, and I hate food going to waste more than any dietary choice), but I can't say I enjoyed it as much as I expected.

 

1 hour ago, Alexnf said:

 

I also buy organic eggs or from local farms to near where I live. I meant in cases the vegan knows how it was produced.

 

While one the subject eggs.

 

I also used to buy most organic that had the code 0 and tasted nice. Apparently for Code 0, free range is not a prerequisite, so a big organic farm can just have spacious farm (6 birds/sqm) and they can never see the outside of the farm in their life :

 

 

While Free range eggs (1) the birds must go out daily (but unfortunately they can feed them all the crap they want as there is no pre-requisite).

 

 

So a little research on the conditions of the organic farm is good

 

I've dug a bit deeper as a result of your post, and it seems that for eggs to be Bio the hens do have to have access to the outside, but exactly how much I'm still not sure. Your post has definitely made me think a bit more about my recent decision to buy only bio-eier, which I've always perceived as being freerange+

 

47 minutes ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

A vegetarian will consume no dead animal products. So no meat, fish, leather, silk for a vegetarian.

 

Until now, I never realised harvesting silk destroyed the silk worm. Somehow I thought it was like spiders web. Learn something new every day.

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6 minutes ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

I drink wine made with issinglas,

 

Also many beers have issinglas. I have vegan friends who didn't know about issinglas.

There is a site that says which alcoholic beverages are 100% vegan friendly, in case someone is interested : http://www.barnivore.com/beer

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12 minutes ago, plantwhisperer said:

 

I've dug a bit deeper as a result of your post, and it seems that for eggs to be Bio the hens do have to have access to the outside, but exactly how much I'm still not sure.

 

It is tricky. I have also done some digging. In Germany at least they should be allotted some space to move (4 sqm per bird) :  

Quote

Zusätzlich stehen jeder Henne mindestens vier Quadratmeter Auslauf zur Verfügung

 

BUT it isn't obligatory to be outside the barn like it is stated for free-range (non bio) eggs (Code 1) :

 

Quote

Zusätzlich haben die Hennen tagsüber Auslauf im Freien

 

So unless it is stated (or you know the farm conditions) that is both bio and free range. You cannot be sure.

 

Also it is good to know the difference with just BIo and Demeter/bioland etc who are even stricter : Read here for example

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16 minutes ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

A meat eater wanting to find fault, would highlight all my dietary failings in my vegetarianism, and call me a hypocrite. That's being the fundamentalist in my view.

 

 

Im not calling you a hypocrite, nor a fundamentalist.  Im saying that you blithly coming with statements about how vegetarianism and veganism are simple is unhelpful.  For the record we could have the same discussion about almost any dietary needs, cooking for jewish people for example is seriously confusing as many will eat almost anything through to the extreme where they wont even eat on your premesis because you dont have separate kitchens for meat and dairy.  Like with vegetarians, I dont make any kind of judgements about how they chose to observe, I just say it isnt easy for someone to know what they expect.

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2 minutes ago, Alexnf said:

 

It is tricky. I have also done some digging. In Germany at least they should be allotted some space to move (4 sqm per bird) :  

 

BUT it isn't obligatory to be outside the barn like it is stated for free-range (non bio) eggs (Code 1) :

 

 

So unless it is stated (or you know the farm conditions) that is both bio and free range. You cannot be sure.

 

 

And who said/discovered that hen given more then 4sq m will make the egg bio or not...its all marketing ...dont dwele or beleive too much in these gimmick ...when bio will be saturated then  some new fancy word will be  in  the market ...bio-bio,bio-max...blah blah...so,eat what you want to eat..dont beleive all these marketing gimmick and whats writen on internet about them...

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4 minutes ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

  For the record we could have the same discussion about almost any dietary needs,

Indeed. I have found that strict dietary restrictions that don't involve an actual allergy or intolerance are generally pretty complicated.

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2 hours ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

A vegetarian will consume no dead animal products. So no meat, fish, leather, silk for a vegetarian. Also some are not so strict on the wearing vs eating (like me)

...

 

A vegetarian doesn't want to kill animals, and a vegan doesn't want to even exploit animals. It's really that simple.

 

It's not as strict or simple as that. Vegetarians is a fairly loose definition; I have been "vegetarian" for over 40 years and I wear both leather and silk, and so do all vegetarians that I know. Certainly, the ones in India...

And "not wanting to kill animals" is not the sole reason for being vegetarian, and for some it isn't even the main reason. For me, it wasn't a rational decision at all; I just could not stand the taste, smell, sight of dead animals. It just disgusted me, though I can overcom eit enough to buy and cook it for others. Just not have it in my own mouth. Others are vegetarian for helth reasons, real or imagined.

Many Indians are vegetarian because of the "sattvic" effect on the mind; ie, they believe eating meat is mentally stimulating, promotes aggression, stimulates sexual urges etc., impulses they want to curb. Though I suspect that like me it's an instinct rather than a conscious decision.

I would eat fish, and do sometimes. There are people who would say, then you're not a true vegetarion. I don't care. It's not a religion to me, to which I have to toe the line.

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22 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

I don't think vegans are a PITA in general, but some of them are insufferable and they must get noticed.   Like when you go out with them to a restaurant and when they receive the menu even without opening it they go all "Sigh ... why they never have decent food for us vegans anywhere?".

 

Imagine if you lived in a largely vegetarian world. Your vegetarian friends phone and suggest meeting up and going to a restaurant. You’re delighted and propose the steak house. They have great salads there, and you really fancy a sirloin steak, medium rare with mushroom sauce. Or maybe pepper sauce. How about mushroom & pepper?

 

Your friends reply: The salads in the steak house are really good, but they’re better in the sandwich bar which they want to go to. You ask resigned if you can at least get a steak sandwich. Of course they say: they have loads of meat dishes.

 

So at the sandwich bar, you look at the menu. And the only meat is a ham sandwich. With mayonnaise, or sweet mustard, or spicy mustard. There! Say your friends: 3 meat dishes, isn’t this place great?

 

However they see you’re a little disappointed, and one of your friends suggest: Wait didn’t you want mushroom sauce? Waiter can you put some mushrooms on his ham sandwich? Of course says the waiter still waiting for you to decide if you want mayonnaise or mustard on your ham and mushroom sandwich.

 

Another spots a tuna sandwich on the menu, also available with mayonnaise or both types of mustard. Don’t carnivores like fish? Would you prefer the tuna sandwich? Waiter also possible with mushrooms?

 

Now there are 8 meat/fish dishes. Why would anyone want to go to the steak house when there’s such a great variety here???

 

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1 hour ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

 

 

 

I would also note that vegans will almost never eat meat, eggs etc that are not exploitative.  For example as a thought experiment:  if a wild bird was found dead and in its nest were eggs which would no longer be hatcheable, you would not be able to persuade a vegan to eat the bird or its eggs.  But where is the exploitation?

 

Not that I have a problem with vegetarianism or veganism, but your assertion that its all simple is pushing it.  Like most groups there is no end of infighting and calling each other "not real vegetarians" and even shaming people for eating fake meat.  I have with my own ears heard people say that eating vegetarian sausages is wrong, I couldnt really understand why but it seemed to be something about not properly embracing vegetarianism and clinging onto meat.

 

I would not even eat meat if it were already dead, ie did not involve the killing of animals. It's the idea of eating flesh that makes me gag, not the killing per se. The way a typial Western meat-eater might gag at the idea of eating maggots or worms.

 

I don't think eating vegetarian sausage is "wrong"; I just think that if you crave meat, the taste of it, then just go ahead and eat it. I don't like the taste of it; even as a child I didn't. I used to refuse all meat except chicken, which I did like.

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7 minutes ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

Imagine if you lived in a largely vegetarian world. Your vegetarian friends phone and suggest meeting up and going to a restaurant. You’re delighted and propose the steak house. They have great salads there, and you really fancy a sirloin steak, medium rare with mushroom sauce. Or maybe pepper sauce. How about mushroom & pepper?

 

Your friends reply: The salads in the steak house are really good, but they’re better in the sandwich bar which they want to go to. You ask resigned if you can at least get a steak sandwich. Of course they say: they have loads of meat dishes.

 

So at the sandwich bar, you look at the menu. And the only meat is a ham sandwich. With mayonnaise, or sweet mustard, or spicy mustard. There! Say your friends: 3 meat dishes, isn’t this place great?

 

However they see you’re a little disappointed, and one of your friends suggest: Wait didn’t you want mushroom sauce? Waiter can you put some mushrooms on his ham sandwich? Of course says the waiter still waiting for you to decide if you want mayonnaise or mustard on your ham and mushroom sandwich.

 

Another spots a tuna sandwich on the menu, also available with mayonnaise or both types of mustard. Don’t carnivores like fish? Would you prefer the tuna sandwich? Waiter also possible with mushrooms?

 

Now there are 8 meat/fish dishes. Why would anyone want to go to the steak house when there’s such a great variety here???

 

You just have described a feeling of a beer drinker in wine producing countries. I think I will never forget a face of a waiter in a Luxembourg restaurant who brought me a wine card with like 100 wines in it and I asked if they have a beer. Yes, they had, only one. The waiter took the wine card in disgust how could I even dare to order that.

 

:)

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1 hour ago, zwiebelfisch said:
1 hour ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

@zwiebelfisch Sigh! If you want to be a dietary lawyer then yes it's not that simple.

 

I'm vegetarian. I drink wine made with issinglas, cheese made with rennet and sandals made with leather. A vegan would look at this, and say well at least he's a vegetarian even if not a perfect one. His karma is good.

 

45 minutes ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

Im not calling you a hypocrite, nor a fundamentalist.  Im saying that you blithly coming with statements about how vegetarianism and veganism are simple is unhelpful.  For the record we could have the same discussion about almost any dietary needs, cooking for jewish people for example is seriously confusing as many will eat almost anything through to the extreme where they wont even eat on your premesis because you dont have separate kitchens for meat and dairy.  Like with vegetarians, I dont make any kind of judgements about how they chose to observe, I just say it isnt easy for someone to know what they expect.

 

I

 

 

MAM, I would define you as "strict vegetarian". I'm not, but I haven't eaten meat at all since 1971, and never would. But eggs, fish, leather, silk, beer, glue, Gummibären etc don't bother me. The term "vegetarian" is extremely loose IMO.

 

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We always look at it this way.

If we specifically invite a person around to eat and we know they are a vegan etc, we feel responsible to accommodate their needs. We go as far as to make sure we cook something they will eat. We do not however cook vegan food for everyone.

 

We did have one person who refused to come around due to being very anti-beef and would not come if we cooked any meat dishes. They did not come and have not been invited since.

 

The problem is always the surprise vegan/veggie/some kind of dietary need (including religious ones).

We went to one BBQ where they had prepared 3 BBQs, there was the veggie one, the normal one and one for some Indian friends (no beef).

Then when the Indian colleagues turned up, there was a Muslim with them.

So, grill with no meat, grill with no beef and now grill with no pork as well. They managed but it caused some stress but no one was there saying 'I will not eat from a grill where pork/beef is next to what I am going to eat'.

 

Comes down to how strict the person is and how much they expect other people to cater form them. I always say it is nice when people will, but for the most part vegan/veggie/religious dietary choices are choices. You have no real right to expect anyone else to play along and if there had only been one grill it would have been tough for some.

 



 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, arunadasi said:

 

I would not even eat meat if it were already dead, ie did not involve the killing of animals. It's the idea of eating flesh that makes me gag, not the killing per se. The way a typial Western meat-eater might gag at the idea of eating maggots or worms.

 

I don't think eating vegetarian sausage is "wrong"; I just think that if you crave meat, the taste of it, then just go ahead and eat it. I don't like the taste of it; even as a child I didn't. I used to refuse all meat except chicken, which I did like.

 

Thats how the vegetarianism in India is...Many people havent tasted meat as kids ...so they dont have taste for meat..Thats it... killing of animals, eating eggs,wearing leather , silk is egal for them..

 

What people discussing here is Western problem...people turning Veg/Vegan due to different reasons...but they have eaten meat at some point of time ..

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6 minutes ago, arunadasi said:

 

 

MAM, I would define you as "strict vegetarian". I'm not, but I haven't eaten meat at all since 1971, and never would. But eggs, fish, leather, silk, beer, glue, Gummibären etc don't bother me. The term "vegetarian" is extremely loose IMO.

 

Total agree... I know some veggies that eat fish...

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6 minutes ago, Harold Beckwith said:

Total agree... I know some veggies that eat fish...

No you bloody don't. You know some pescetarians that mislabel themselves as vegetarians who eat fish.

And the problem with this: If people meet 1 "fish eating vegetarian" and 99 "real vegetarians" They will ask the 99 real vegetarians why they don't eat fish.

 

I know a vegetarian who eats fish. Vegetarians eat fish. Why are you being so difficult?

BTW strict vegetarian is often used to imply vegan.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, MadAxeMurderer said:








Imagine if you lived in a largely vegetarian world. Your vegetarian friends phone and suggest meeting up and going to a restaurant. You're delighted and propose the steak house. They have great salads there, and you really fancy a sirloin steak, medium rare with mushroom sauce. Or maybe pepper sauce. How about mushroom & pepper?







Your friends reply: The salads in the steak house are really good, but they're better in the sandwich bar which they want to go to. You ask resigned if you can at least get a steak sandwich. Of course they say: they have loads of meat dishes.







So at the sandwich bar, you look at the menu. And the only meat is a ham sandwich. With mayonnaise, or sweet mustard, or spicy mustard. There! Say your friends: 3 meat dishes, isn't this place great?







However they see you're a little disappointed, and one of your friends suggest: Wait didn't you want mushroom sauce? Waiter can you put some mushrooms on his ham sandwich? Of course says the waiter still waiting for you to decide if you want mayonnaise or mustard on your ham and mushroom sandwich.







Another spots a tuna sandwich on the menu, also available with mayonnaise or both types of mustard. Don't carnivores like fish? Would you prefer the tuna sandwich? Waiter also possible with mushrooms?







Now there are 8 meat/fish dishes. Why would anyone want to go to the steak house when there's such a great variety here???














Imagine I am a Muslim and I live in a non-Muslim country like Germany and I go out and eat with my friends and colleagues multiple times a week and I do not mention every time how limited the menu is, I just choose anything that fits my own requirements and do not make a drama out of it. And yes, imagine they all eat their juicy steaks in front of me and I just enjoy my pasta with tomato sauce without crying.







I actually eat vegetarian a lot and I am not a vegetarian.







My point was that SOME vegetarians and SOME vegans are drama queens and like to get attention and like everyone to know their diet choices and how they suffer. Those drama queens are the ones giving the bad image to all veggies. If you deny this I don't know what else to say, I was just giving my opinion when someone else asked why people think like that about vegetarians and vegans.




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