Stove wiring: 4 cables from wall - 5 cables stove

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Hello friends,

 

I need advise on how to connect a stove that has 5 cables (including 2 black cables) to a cable from the wall that only has 4 cables (only one black cable).

 

The stove (4 hot plates on top, plus big oven below) has 5 cables and it was previously connected to a socket from the wall with 5 cables.

 

Now we need to connect the stove to another kitchen in an older house; but the cable on the wall has 4 wires only, the wires on the wall are 3 colored cables which match the 3 colored wires in the stove, plus one black wire. The stove has the same 3 colored wires, plus 2 black wires... so we attached the 2 black cables in the stove to the single black cable from the wall ... (blacks go to black was the reasoning)

 

The stove does not work! , it shows a red twinkling light when all the knobs are in the off position, and the light turns off if we attempt to turn the power on to the hot plates or the oven. So obviously the wiring is incorrect.

 

Is it possible the colors mean different things because the house is very old?

 

Where can we find the instructions to properly wire the newer 5-wire stove to the 4-wire cable from the wall in the old house?

 

Curiously we could not find any circuit breakers to turn on/off the twinkling light. It is an old house with newer circuit breakers and older fuses, it also has a new electrical meter. There was another stove working there.

 

How can we find out where the cables coming out of the wall are connected to in the fuses/circuit breakers box?

 

Thank you very much for your assistance.

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WARNING!

 

What you are doing is dangerous and can very easily cause injury! The questions you ask make it clear that you know very little about electrical wiring in general and are therefor in danger!

 

It would be prudent that you call your landlord to get help.

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Hi

 

Yes we are well aware it is dangerous and that we do not know much about electrical wiring!

 

However we have connected the stove before without problems.

 

With the proper instructions we should be able to connect it correctly.

 

I appreciate your word of warning though.

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In the case that you choose to not get help ...

 

You say older house? Many older houses in Germany may not have all the lines that more modern houses have. That is, the NULL (return) line is missing (in modern wiring usually blue).

 

In modern houses the lines with power are usually black or brown. The NULL (return line) is almost always blue. The earth (ground line) is yellow/green.

 

In old wiring, the power lines can be black, brown and/or red. The ground line usually yellow/green, but you can't always be sure (my experience). The return is usually attached or bridged to the ground in those houses, meaning you have no protection for short circuits to ground German: FI.

 

Use a tester (i.e. screwdriver with the little light) to determine which lines have power and which ones do not. I am going to ASSUME that you have 3 with power and one without. Those three will need to be connected to the lines on the oven labeled "L1", "L2" "L3". You would then need to connect the line without power to the line labeled "N". I am uncertain whether or not the ground needs to be bridged, but to do so, use a similar piece of insulated wire and connect "N" and the ground (labeled as three horizontal lines over each other with each lower line getting shorter).

 

The breakers used for the oven should be labeled as such ("Herd" or "Ofen"). There should be three, or three in unison or a special large one. If not, you will need either use the tester to determine (turn all off an then turn on one by one), or call your landlord.

 

This information is in doubt! That is your setup may be different (return is present, but shows power). Without seeing it, it is hard to say.

 

Again, what you are attempting to do is dangerous and you can very easily hurt yourself or your property, perhaps even causing a fire.

Please, get help.

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Do not touch this!

 

Be aware there are TWO DIFFERENT VOLTAGES FOR STOVES IN GERMANY - one is 230 V, the other is 360 V ("Drehstrom"). Wire colors vary wildly, and there is no rule which voltage is in what type/age house.

Attaching the wiring to the wrong voltage can damage the stove, blow the fuses, or injure you.

 

And no, to protect you, I shall not attempt to explain the wiring - I could be wrong, you may have described it wrong, and you don't know me (why do people trust forums for critical technical advice?).

 

DISCONNECT EVERYTHING AND GET AN ELECTRICIAN OR CALL THE LANDLORD.

 

Attaching this the wrong way can void all sorts of warranties and insurance, and get you into trouble with your landlord for negligence.

 

Please don't kill yourself :) .

Peace.

 

[i'm a landlord.]

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@LostInEurope01:

No, you didn't - I won't start attacking you :) . I understand you want to help the OP, but they have so little knowledge of electrical things and the quirks of the German system (and old houses!) I truely fear for their safety.

 

If they still insist on doing this themselves, they are beyond help, but I can't change that. Peace.

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I will probably hire a professional electrician because it is obvious the wiring in this house is a bit messy.

 

The breaker labels are all mislabeled, all the old wires and old meter were replaced in the past and new meter, cables and connections made.

 

Other than attaching wires with the same colors we do not attempt to do anything else, it is too dangerous as you mentioned.

 

Initially we turned off all the breakers, to be safe! ... but later found out that none of the breakers was turning the little light off, so we do not feel safe any more :)

 

I might buy a tester and see how many and which wires have power; but that will be all!

 

Thank you very much indeed

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@JLewis

Thankyou for letting me know that! You truly had me worried!

 

Those little testers only cost a euro or two and are always good to have around, i.e to make sure that it is not the outlet but the device that is not working :-)

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*relieved* :)

 

I agree with LostInEurope01, testers are handy to have. And gadgets to measure power consumption of individual appliances, too.

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@Metall,

thankyou for the moral support. :-)

 

It is indeed very tempting to "try to get it going" - I have been there and know that sometimes there just isn't any stopping that. Having at least some information is in itself sometimes sobering enough, or so I hoped. But you never know ...

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Also you may find if you diy it that if you do have any problems ie burning something,blowing something up etc etc that your insurance may not cover it as they are often very fussy as to electrical installations being done by a professional.

Also some landlords also make this a pre requisite that stuff like this is handled by professionals.

I do many things around the house but the one thing I won't touch is stuff like that as German wiring seems crazy to me :)

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I was surprised that in Germany that 3 phase electricity is available in the home, I think in England it is only used in commercial properties. When I removed an old oven I turned off the fuse marked 'oven' and fortunately tested the cables before unscrewing them because they were still live as three fuses needed to be switched off. My current flat from the 1970s has only one phase (as I'd expect), but does not seem to have an earth and the plug sockets are wired with the neutral and earth wired together.

 

I would contact your landlord, he probably has a hausmeister (caretaker) who he can call upon to assistance you with these simple (if you know what you are doing) jobs.

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Jlewis, I think you must've been getting hungry by the time you opened this thread.

 

That would be why you posted it under the 'Cooking' sub-forum I suppose...

 

unless you were already subconsciously planning on cooking your cooker. :ph34r:

 

I'm going to move it to 'Life in Germany' - for safety's sake. ;)

 

2B

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Be aware there are TWO DIFFERENT VOLTAGES FOR STOVES IN GERMANY - one is 230 V, the other is 360 V ("Drehstrom").

 

While I absolutely agree with Metall that you should keep your fingers out of your stove's wiring box unless you really know what you are doing, this statement about voltages is maybe a bit misleading...

 

The effective voltage between one of the phases and the return/ground is 230V and the effective voltage between the phases is 400V.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreiphasenwechselstrom

So the different voltages are only a question of how you measure...

 

All modern stoves should be connected to all three phases for full functionality, but most of them can be connected to a single phase with reduced functionality. This involves moving some internal bridges in the wiring box of the stove, though. (I know because I had to connect a three phase stove to a single phase fuse box in my old apartment.)

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Metal are you sure about 360V? I thought the three wires were a three phase supply which if one phase is 230V makes the difference between the phases something like 400.

 

3 phase electricity generation is pretty standard the world over. It's just that it's unusual for a household to have access to all 3 phases as seems to be the case for cookers here. Your normal sockets are fed by one of the three phases your cooker uses. In Europe each phase is 230V to the neutral wireso each one of those phases will be like the live in a normal plug socket. It just happens that they are out of sync with each other by 120 degrees, so the difference between any two of those live wires is 400V.

 

Now, if that sounded like a clear explaination from a normal person having a conversation, go ahead and get a wiring diagramme. If it read like incomprehensible geeky wibble- don't touch it.

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If everything is switched on a cooker can consume up to 11Kw. That is 50A. If you use only one phase you would need very thick wires. If you use 3 phase current every wire only needs to take 16A. More reasonable. 2.5mm² is sufficient.

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Metal are you sure about 360V? I thought the three wires were a three phase supply which if one phase is 230V makes the difference between the phases something like 400.

 

I just talked to Mr Metall about this, and did some digging.

I didn't remember correctly, Drehstrom/three phase current definitely is not 360 V.

It should be 400 V when you look at the formula, but I also found descriptions of Drehstrom with 380 V

Be it as it may, it's dangerous, is wired differently, and should not be trifled with by amateurs.

Be safe! ;)

 

Edit: OK, I found it.

European voltage used to be 220 V, and was raised in the 1980s to 230 V.

The formula for three phase current is: square root of 3 (about 1.73) times the single phase voltage:

200 V -> 380 V

230 V -> 400 V

 

Here's an interesting link (German only).

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Reason the light is twinkling is you have a live connected to the neutral on the stove. Some German homes the live is the black wire!

 

It is something as others have recommended you have done right, an earth fault on a wrongly wired appliance can kill. Having worked on appliances for years I have only been zapped despite checking most of the time by people who wire plugs or extension leads wrong!

I even saw an appliance that a divorced woman had asked me to check after she got a shock. If she had died they would probably have arrested her ex. He had not done the work but it could have been mistaken as a murder attempt.

 

You could also Google to see if the stove has a wiring diagram or you should find one on the back cover or inside the junction box on the back of the stove.

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If its an older apartment then its more than likely that the Neutral and earth are actually the same cable....

 

As for the Donaby comment about 3phase in homes..

 

In the UK, a Cooker connection is 32 amps and is required to have a dual PolIsolation switch.. Here in DE, the biggest trip switch you can get here is 16amp.. thats not enough for a cooker for it to work at its full capacity.

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