Now faster way (back) into public health insurance

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You are right Starshollow. That actually comes from the website of an insurance agent. But what I dont understand is that the first part has nothing to do with Employer. 

 

I might be wrong in translation with my basic german and little help from google translation but to my understanding it states that people can come back to voluntary insurance if they have been members of public insurance for atleast 24 months of the last five years or also for an uninterrupted time of 12 months before coming out of voluntary insurance.

 

I also saw an interesting clause in the German law regarding voluntary insurance which is as follows:

Freiwillige Versicherung ( § 9 Abs. 1 SGB V )

(1) Der Versicherung können beitreten

  1.

Personen, die als Mitglieder aus der Versicherungspflicht ausgeschieden sind und in den letzten fünf Jahren vor dem Ausscheiden mindestens vierundzwanzig Monate oder unmittelbar vor dem Ausscheiden ununterbrochen mindestens zwölf Monate versichert waren; Zeiten der Mitgliedschaft nach § 189 und Zeiten, in denen eine Versicherung allein deshalb bestanden hat, weil Arbeitslosengeld II zu Unrecht bezogen wurde, werden nicht berücksichtigt.

 

Does it mean that people who opted for private insurance can go back to public insurance if they satisfy the rule stated above ??

 

May be I am wrong also and you can translate it better and put things in perspective.

 

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I strongly advise you to follow Starhollow's advice!  He knows his stuff!

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17 hours ago, Krisgod said:

You are right Starshollow. That actually comes from the website of an insurance agent. But what I dont understand is that the first part has nothing to do with Employer. 

 

I might be wrong in translation with my basic german and little help from google translation but to my understanding it states that people can come back to voluntary insurance if they have been members of public insurance for atleast 24 months of the last five years or also for an uninterrupted time of 12 months before coming out of voluntary insurance.

 

I also saw an interesting clause in the German law regarding voluntary insurance which is as follows:

Freiwillige Versicherung ( § 9 Abs. 1 SGB V )

(1) Der Versicherung können beitreten

  1.

Personen, die als Mitglieder aus der Versicherungspflicht ausgeschieden sind und in den letzten fünf Jahren vor dem Ausscheiden mindestens vierundzwanzig Monate oder unmittelbar vor dem Ausscheiden ununterbrochen mindestens zwölf Monate versichert waren; Zeiten der Mitgliedschaft nach § 189 und Zeiten, in denen eine Versicherung allein deshalb bestanden hat, weil Arbeitslosengeld II zu Unrecht bezogen wurde, werden nicht berücksichtigt.

 

Does it mean that people who opted for private insurance can go back to public insurance if they satisfy the rule stated above ??

 

May be I am wrong also and you can translate it better and put things in perspective.

 

 

Nope, it does not say what you mean or think it says.

§ 9 SGB V says this: if and when your compulsory membership (Versicherungspflicht) ends, you can continue as a voluntary member if you have been with compulsory insurance for the past 12 months directly prior to the end of your compulsory membership or at least 24 months out of the last 5 years.

 

1. this does not apply to anyone who is in private health insurance at all - only to people who are in compulsory public insurance

2. this rule, btw, also applies if your have been a member of another EU-memberstate's public health insurance system (like NHS in UK) for the same periods of time according to the EU-directive 883/2014, article 5 and 6

3. this rule is obsolete in parts since August 2013 within Germany due to the new rule of "obligatorische Anschlussversicherung" becoming effective law. So, if you become compulsory insured in Germany now even just for one day, you can and will continue as voluntary member  right afterwards, the 12-months-rules does not aply here any more. It is under dispute, though, if the "obligatorische Anschlussversicherung" can or must also be applied to a short stint in another EU-memberstate's public health insurance system. I think that the answer is yes, but it probably needs to be tested in court.

 

Cheerio

 

I am a professional independent insurance broker, financial adviser, and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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Thanks a lot for the clarification.

 

I guess I was too naive to believe that things would be so simple in Germany.

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Does the JAEG include bonus and one time payments also or is it only the basic salary ?

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one time payments - no

bonus payments - depends. if they are coming in regularily and are defined well enough in the work contract, then yes. if it varies a lot from year to year, tough, and cannot be considered a more or less regular reoccuring pay, then no.

When in doubt, aks an expert to check your situation and solve this puzzle for you.

 

Cheerio

I am a professional independent insurance broker, financial adviser, and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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Hi,

 

If one is getting in to public insurance (GKV) by earning less and hope to stay there due to this (now, not so new) regulation, does it make sense to take an anwartshaft in order to protect your old age contribution with your existing PKV ( just in case, you are sent back again on some technicalities )

I have read it somewhere that up to a period of one year, your previous PKV is bound to take you back (even without an anwartshaft), if your income rises above the prescribed limit for compulsorily GKV insurance and you are asked to leave GKV. If this is true, would it also work for other family members ?

 

Secondly, since anwartshaft is basically money being paid for no coverage,  is there some other alternative to to keep your contribution protected, like some additional insurance ( zusatzversicherung )

 

Thanks

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This is interesting

 

Ive been working for 5 months with a minijob and chose private health insurance, because it was much cheaper, and I simply couldn´t pay 100% of public HI. Now, Im applying for a full-time "normal salary" job (below the threshold), and I want to go into public. That means I can, with no problem, right? I know that once I chose to go into private I coudlnt go back to public without a normal job, but this means once I get employed I get into the public system?. Right?

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Yes, as long as your private health insurance is a recognised BaFin-registered health insurance (= all German full private health insurances plus only a few international ones, not travel health insurances) there will be no problem.

 

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I'm not looking to switch back to the public insurance currently, but I think I found something interesting the other day that may help others if their company has similar benefits. Maybe someone can clarify if it would work...

 

My company offers a supplementary pension that allows you to contribute up to 30% of your pay every year. This is before-tax money that is contributed so in effect your gross salary is reduced by whatever amount you dictate, if I am understanding it correctly. In this case, if I were to contribute enough that my salary would "drop" below the PKV threshold for a period of time, would I then be able to go back to the public insurance? Or do they look at your full salary before any deductions to determine your eligibility?

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6 hours ago, Ben21 said:

My company offers a supplementary pension that allows you to contribute up to 30% of your pay every year. This is before-tax money that is contributed so in effect your gross salary is reduced by whatever amount you dictate, if I am understanding it correctly. In this case, if I were to contribute enough that my salary would "drop" below the PKV threshold for a period of time, would I then be able to go back to the public insurance? Or do they look at your full salary before any deductions to determine your eligibility?

 

You are only allowed to contribute up to 4% of the Beitragsbemessungsgrenze_Rentenversicherung, which in 2017 means 4% of 76,200 = 3,048€ per year free of social security contributions and income tax for betriebliche Altersvorsorge, see §3 Nr. 63 EStG.

 

If through these 3,048€, your gross salary drops under the Versicherungspflichtgrenze (= JAEG = Jahresarbeitsentgeltgrenze) of 57,600€ then yes, you again become a mandatory member of public health insurance, if you're under 55 years old, see here: https://www.haufe.de/personal/entgelt/zurueck-in-die-gkv-mit-einer-betriebsrente_78_69026.html

 

However, there are other ways to get below the Versicherungspflichtgrenze, for example:

  • if your employer offers the Langarbeitszeitkonto (for an explanation of what that is, see here), details in here.
  • you go part-time for at least one month, and get below the Versicherungspflichtgrenze that way. The next month, your employer begs you to go full-time again... Details in here.

 

For an overview of all possible ways of getting back into public health insurance, please see this article from January 2017: https://www.financescout24.de/wissen/ratgeber/rueckkehr-gesetzliche-krankenversicherung

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 @Tap

Check out the "move back to Ireland for at least 1 year"-option in the linked article, to then move back to Germany again and into German public health insurance. The 55 years cut off age doesn't apply in this "I'm coming directly out of another EU public health insurance, so you have to accept me as a member!" scenario.

 

If you're a low-income self-employed (with little assets) you can then apply to only pay around 250€ a month for German public health insurance: 

 

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15 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

 @Tap

Check out the "move back to Ireland for at least 1 year"-option in the linked article, to then move back to Germany again and into German public health insurance. The 55 years cut off age doesn't apply in this "I'm coming directly out of another EU public health insurance, so you have to accept me as a member!" scenario.

 

If you're a low-income self-employed (with little assets) you can then apply to only pay around 250€ a month for German public health insurance: 

 

Hi Panda, I'm aware of the moving back option, but as a freelancer, I would lose my core clients and when I came back, I would have to start all over again, which would be too difficult to do.  Added to that, my children are here and I wouldn't want to leave them, their Dad already did that.

 

It's okay, I'll survive, I've been through worse and I'm not the only one.  There was a lot of bad avice given out in the 90s and a number of us got caught up in it.  I just took offence to ATL42's post and wanted to put another side across.  As John_g says, it's the system that's to blame, not the individuals.

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On 3/12/2017, 3:01:27, PandaMunich said:

 

You are only allowed to contribute up to 4% of the Beitragsbemessungsgrenze_Rentenversicherung, which in 2017 means 4% of 76,200 = 3,048€ per year free of social security contributions and income tax for betriebliche Altersvorsorge, see §3 Nr. 63 EStG.

 

If through these 3,048€, your gross salary drops under the Versicherungspflichtgrenze (= JAEG = Jahresarbeitsentgeltgrenze) of 57,600€ then yes, you again become a mandatory member of public health insurance, if you're under 55 years old, see here: https://www.haufe.de/personal/entgelt/zurueck-in-die-gkv-mit-einer-betriebsrente_78_69026.html

 

However, there are other ways to get below the Versicherungspflichtgrenze, for example:

  • if your employer offers the Langarbeitszeitkonto (for an explanation of what that is, see here), details in here.
  • you go part-time for at least one month, and get below the Versicherungspflichtgrenze that way. The next month, your employer begs you to go full-time again... Details in here.

 

For an overview of all possible ways of getting back into public health insurance, please see this article from January 2017: https://www.financescout24.de/wissen/ratgeber/rueckkehr-gesetzliche-krankenversicherung

 

Hi Panda,

 

Thanks so much for the info.  Maybe what I'm looking at is not considered a pension then, but rather a salary conversion-- don't know if that changes the rules.  It says in the conditions here that up to 30% can be contributed.  Here's the relevant text from my company's HR policy (DC = "Deferred Compensation"):

 

Die Umwandlung erfolgt aus Ihrem Funktionseinkommen (aus dem laufenden Monatsgehalt).
Der DC-Mindestumwandlungsbetrag liegt für die Mitarbeiter und Mitarbeiterinnen aller Vertragsstufen bei 1.500 Euro pro Jahr, der individuelle Höchstumwandlungsbetrag entspricht 30 Prozent des Funktionseinkommens. Es können nur Beträge in 300-Euro-Schritten umgewandelt werden.

 

It even says in the policy the following regarding health insurance:

 

Sollten Sie infolge der Entgeltumwandlung als privat Krankenversicherte/r die für Sie maßgebliche Jahresarbeitsentgeltgrenze unterschreiten, entsteht die Versicherungspflicht in der gesetzlichen Krankenversicherung. Im Jahr 2017 beträgt die Jahresarbeitsentgeltgrenze grundsätzlich 57.600 €; für Personen, die bereits zum 31.12.2002 privat krankenversichert waren, gilt abweichend hiervon ein Wert von 52.200 €. Die entsprechenden Werte für das Jahr 2018 stehen derzeit noch nicht fest.

 

Maybe you can help clarify?

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They made a mistake, anything above 4% + 1,800€ a year (both mentioned in §3 Nr. 63 EStG) that you contribute has to be made out of your net income, i.e. out of your "after-tax", "after-social-security-contributions" income, so it doesn't lower the Bemessungsgrundlage (= contribution base) for social security, so anything above these limits would basically be your own private investment decision, no advantages in that at all.

 

Please ask them how their text fits the 4% rule in §3 Nr. 63 EStG and also for supporting documentation, which you can then post here.

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3 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

They made a mistake, anything above 4% + 1,800€ a year (both mentioned in §3 Nr. 63 EStG) that you contribute has to be made out of your net income, i.e. out of your "after-tax", "after-social-security-contributions" income, so it doesn't lower the Bemessungsgrundlage (= contribution base) for social security, so anything above these limits would basically be your own private investment decision, no advantages in that at all.

 

Please ask them how their text fits the 4% rule in §3 Nr. 63 EStG and also for supporting documentation, which you can then post here.

 

Hmm, ok.  Here's what I found out regarding this:

 

Soweit Entgelt oberhalb der Beitragsbemessungsgrenze (BBG) der allgemeinen deutschen Rentenversicherung umgewandelt wird, ergeben sich aus heutiger Sicht zum Zeitpunkt der Umwandlung keine beitragsrechtlichen Konsequenzen. Wird Entgelt unterhalb der BBG der gesetzlichen Rentenversicherung umgewandelt und überschreitet der entsprechende Umwandlungsbetrag 4 % der BBG, wird der überschreitende Teil bis zur Beitragsbemessungsgrenze beitragspflichtig in der Sozialversicherung. Die BBG der gesetzlichen Rentenversicherung für das Jahr 2017 beträgt 76.200 Euro.

 

So if I understand it correctly, if I set aside money in this scheme, social security contributions are due for this amount > 4%.  So it sounds like this may be, in fact, after-social-security contributions, and the paragraph regarding the drop in income and going back to the public health insurance is more what you said in an earlier post-- that if the 3048€ drops me below the limit, then I would be required to take out the public again, but not as a rule by doing this salary conversion.  Am I understanding it right?

 

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10 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

They made a mistake, anything above 4% + 1,800€ a year (both mentioned in §3 Nr. 63 EStG) that you contribute has to be made out of your net income, i.e. out of your "after-tax", "after-social-security-contributions" income, so it doesn't lower the Bemessungsgrundlage (= contribution base) for social security

 

Just to clarify this.

Although normally the rule according to §14 Absatz 1 Satz 1 SGB IV is:

  • income on which you have to pay income tax = income on which you have to pay social security contributions

 

which in German legalese is:

  • Bemessungsgrundlage Einkommensteuer = Bemessungsgrundlage Sozialabgaben

 

there's an exception in §14 Absatz 1 Satz 2 SGB IV, which only allows a Entgeltumwandlung up to those 4% to be free from social security deductions. They do not mention those additional tax-free 1,800€ in there!

 

So we now have a situation where the Bemessungsgrundlagen are no longer the same in both income tax law and social security law.

 

Example:

Let's assume a gross income of 60,000€ in 2017.

If you contribute both those 4% (in 2017: 3,048€) and a further 1,800€ into an eligible betriebliche Altersvorsorge, i.e. into a Direktversicherung, Pensionskasse or Pensionsfonds, then:

 

In summary:

  • you would pay income tax on: 60,000€ - 4,848€ = 55,152€
  • but you would have to pay social security contributions on: 60,000€ - 3,048€ = 56,952€

However, since those 56,952€ that are subject to social security are still lower than the 2017 Versicherungspflichtgrenze of 57,600€, you would still become a mandatory member of German public health insurance.

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Dear Starshollow

 

your message is a saviour for people like me. we were mislead to the so called Private insurance and had no Idea how much Financial damage it could cause us until now. every Bill from doctor / Apothoke I submit is being challenged by my Private insurance company -hanse Merkur and it is getting to a point that I cannot afford this anymore. In my family my husband is the sole-earning member above the threshold, and we have 2 kids. all 4 of us were led into this Private insurance and because of the issues they are causing, my only hope is to find a way back to Public insurance atleast for myself and my kids. 

 

we are Non-EU citizens and my husband is working with a good firm currently. could you please let me know how we can change back to public insurance?

 

can the 4 o us together change back. 

or could I and my 2 kids only change. I am not working and my husband is the only earner in the family. 

 

any proper advice would be Highly appreciated here. 

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On 4/3/2017, 11:44:43, bumble30 said:

Dear Starshollow

 

your message is a saviour for people like me. we were mislead to the so called Private insurance and had no Idea how much Financial damage it could cause us until now. every Bill from doctor / Apothoke I submit is being challenged by my Private insurance company -hanse Merkur and it is getting to a point that I cannot afford this anymore. In my family my husband is the sole-earning member above the threshold, and we have 2 kids. all 4 of us were led into this Private insurance and because of the issues they are causing, my only hope is to find a way back to Public insurance atleast for myself and my kids. 

 

we are Non-EU citizens and my husband is working with a good firm currently. could you please let me know how we can change back to public insurance?

 

can the 4 o us together change back. 

or could I and my 2 kids only change. I am not working and my husband is the only earner in the family. 

 

any proper advice would be Highly appreciated here. 

 

I'm in a similar situation, and would also be interested in ways to go back to private...if I take unpaid holidays, for example, to get my monthly salary for 1 month <4700 EUR, can this be used to go back to public? In this case there would be no change to my employment contract (no switch to part-time), only a temporary drop in the brutto salary...

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