Knife-wielding schizophrenic shot by police

145 posts in this topic

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There are many more sources out there, not just the Daily Mail.

 

It seems the guy was seen acting strangely and walking about with a knife before he started self harming. He stripped off and hopped in the fountain and when police tried to "help" him he approached one of them and was shot in the chest and died.

 

I am not one to jump on the "police state" bandwagon but this looks to have been handled absolutely terribly by the police. May the guy rest in peace.

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I disagree, murphaph. I don't know what else the police were supposed to do when charged by an obviously crazed, knife-wielding naked man.

 

I strongly suspect the autopsy will reveal he was on extremely hallucinogenic drugs.

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Have the Berlin (or German?) police never heard of the Tazer

Please, the police union in Berlin is constantly clamoring for them. For widespread issue that is, the Berlin SEK is using 'em.

 

This was last raised publicly when Berlin police was filmed first shooting a man up to eight times in both legs and upper body, then pepperspraying him, then beating him with their truncheons and kicking him all over after he was on the ground and finally letting a police dog have his fun biting him. Whole encounter went on for almost 30 minutes. Then they called in an ambulance. He died two weeks later in hospital, btw.

 

Way Berlin police goes around handling the tools of their trade they'd probably have tasered that guy after pulling the dog off him.

 

Guy was holding on to a knife too btw. And not letting go.

 

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Could you imagine what would have happen if they had tazed the guy when both police officers & the victim where both standing up to their knees in water?

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Fair point there. Do tazers and water mix? Seems obvious but I can't help wondering...

 

Having looked at the Liveleak footage, It would be interesting to see whether a different camera angle would shed more light on this incident. It seems point blank to me. The sequence of events also shows the gunshot just before the cop backed into the well wall.

 

Also I dont recall German Polizei using batons as standard issue.

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This was murder. It was an execution.

 

You have a weird definition of execution. The cop was withdrawing while the man closed in on him. He called him several times to stop before he shot.

 

Shot to the leg...yeah, easy thing to say when you're not in that situation. If he was high on drugs, chances are that he wouldn't even have felt that.

 

About not being prepared to handle this...what do you expect a police officer to do when he's on the scene? Not do anything and wait for some SWAT team to arrive? That's exactly what the cops did in the first school shooting sprees a couple of years ago, and it turned out terrible. Cops are trained to intervene immediately, and this guy had a knife and had cut himself severely.

 

Yes, there might have been a different way to handle this, in hindsight. However, I can't think of any other way the cop could have reacted that would have NOT put himself in considerable risk.

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Really? The only solution for the situation was shoot the guy?

 

I cannot imagine that a cop with the MOST BASIC training doesn't know how to un-arm a naked person with a knife. Either he is TERRIBLY trained or did have bad intentions.

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I cannot imagine that a cop with the MOST BASIC training doesn't know how to un-arm a naked person with a knife. Either he is TERRIBLY trained or did have bad intentions.

 

Bad intentions? Do you really want to insinuate he WANTED to kill that guy? It's easy to comment from hindsight perspective and not having been in that situation. Maybe there would have been alternative ways to deal with that guy and this outcome could have been avoided (I guess so, too). But to even think that he wanted to kill him is malicious.

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There is something known as TACKLE - a training to disarm a knife or truncheon wielding guy. This is a standard training - or should be one. the cops should not be trigger happy. And how did it benefit the poor man who was cutting himself with his knife - where is the logic? a guy is cutting himself to death and comes a cop who shoots him to death - why shoot him when he was killing himself in the first place. The best way to handle this would have been, a cop tries to talk him out of it and the other cop sneaks him from behind and does a rear hold. The first cop joins and they disarm the man. Well this procedure should be standard unless the man has a gun or is very strong. in this case there were 5 cops against one man. This clearly shows the cops lack training and crisis / mob management skills.

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Not going to debate the meaning of the word "execution" but after having watched the video about ten awful times, what appears to have transpired is the man was shot not because he was threatening the wellness and safety of others, or because there was no possibility of a throng of police officers following behind an obviously disoriented person who very doubtfully could have inflicted a mortal wound on another person even if that were his intent, and taking him down from behind. He appears to have been shot for disobeying a command.

 

If shooting the man really was considered by the officers to be the absolute last resort, they might have started by ordering all bystanders to clear the area, leaving a wide berth around the man. Clearly he was not in a state to give chase, but had he done so, he would also not have been a position to stab anyone. Most likely upon a hypothetical flee attempt he would have dropped the knife in order to facilitate his escape.

 

I reiterate: to me it looked very much as if the shooting officer acted within his lawful right/duty to shoot an armed person who is disobeying a command to lay down his weapon. Not as if the officer were concerned about preserving the man's life, or handling an obviously unstable person in such a manner as to facilitate a non-lethal outcome. He attempted to handle a crazy like a normal, then punished him for not reacting normally.

 

The man could have been suffering any number of episodes, seizures, etc., and instead of being treated like a sick person in obvious need of help, he was mowed down like a varmint in the farmer's vegetable patch. I believe hostage takers are negotiated with with more sensitivity, and this man didn't even have the additional threat of a captive, threatened hostage. Merely a handful of rubberneckers who could have easily cleared the scene and left the man to present a threat to no one but whoever got more than a couple meters close to him.

 

I don't believe the cop thought his or anybody else's life was in danger. Whether he is allowed to shoot (extremely technically) armed, disoriented people who have lost a lot of blood and who disobey commands is for me besides the point. It would be interesting to see the results of a polygraph administered to the shooting officer.

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There is something known as TACKLE - a training to disarm a knife or truncheon wielding guy. This is a standard training - or should be one. the cops should not be trigger happy.

 

FFS German cops are NOT trigger happy. Last year around 200 shots have been fired from German cops in total. Thereof 73 aimed at people. Stop maligning cops. Of course you have black sheeps as could be seen in the scene, where cops beat up a guy lying on the ground. That is in no way a generic treatment that German cops hand out.

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I don't believe the cop thought his or anybody else's life was in danger. Whether he is allowed to shoot (extremely technically) armed, disoriented people who have lost a lot of blood and who disobey commands is for me besides the point. It would be interesting to see the results of a polygraph administered to the shooting officer.

 

It is of no importance whether his life was in danger. It's enough that he thought so.

 

2011 36 shots have been fired at people, 6 died.

2012 73 shots have been fired at people and would have to look up how many people died.

 

Those incidents are unfortunate but in no way are these extreme numbers.

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FFS German cops are NOT trigger happy. Last year around 200 shots have been fired from German cops in total. Thereof 73 aimed at people. Stop maligning cops. Of course you have black sheeps as could be seen in the scene, where cops beat up a guy lying on the ground. That is in no way a generic treatment that German cops hand out.

 

I am not talking generic but very specific to this case. And in this case he was trigger happy cop. I have handled such scenarios during the course of my career and this certainly didn't demand this reaction at the initial stage. I agree more with Dessa Dangerous. Only thing i can think in favour of cop is that he fired a single shot.

 

 

Mmm, well, that's why I wrote--repeatedly--that I don't buy the story that he believed his life was in danger. That was MY point.

 

I agree with you that neither his nor the life of bystanders was in imminent danger and that is the thumb rule for pressing the trigger.

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I am not talking generic but very specific to this case. And in this case he was trigger happy cop. I have handled such scenarios during the course of my career and this certainly didn't demand this reaction at the initial stage. I agree more with Dessa Dangerous. Only thing i can think in favour of cop is that he fired a single shot.

 

If you watched the video, the police man backed off and the man kept coming at him. Sorry but to me this wasn't a trigger happy cop. Watch how he held the gun. I don't know what you had to do in the course of your career but have you personally ever be in a similar situation? Not felt threatened? A obviously crazy guy is coming at you with a knife?

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