What do you like about the German public schools?

[Guest]

For my third grader,

 

any TTers know of in Germany a school with strong direct instruction (teaching) in Math? And where a child may do in Math single subject acceleration? Someplace which can really teach a kid who is towards the 'MINT' side?

 

Preferably public but private okay if not expensive. She would like a normal ('Regel', or 'Normalo') school but Hamburg is going further ahead to phase these out. 

 

I only know that Thüringen and Bayern are generally faster-paced and not so Inklusion-oriented as Hamburg and so will have still more normal schools, but that does not help me find a specific school to contact.

 

@Jeba - thanks for the tip on Krativitaetsgymnasium, they seem to be pro-teaching. I have just contacted them.

 

@janjan I put my daughter on the Brecht waiting list even though I hear they lack direct instruction in Math because it is the only MINT Grundschule in Hamburg at this time. If you know a public or not-expensive private school in Hamburg which does direct instruction and might consider single subject acceleration for Math please telll me.

 

But from what I see on the further eroding of what is left of MINT teaching in Hamburg Gymnasium school mornings, if I want to keep my child in Germany she has to move to a different Bundesland for Gymnasium anyway.

 

If I can get her into a faster-paced in MINT subject school with direct instruction and real schoolbooks, then she can just go with the flow and it would be less frustrating for her.

[Krieg 15,104]

I am posting in this thread so I can read in September about how the new sonazeit's kid' school is so much better and then I can read in December sonazeit's complaints about how the new school is the crappiest school ever and maybe some stories about how she is going to sue half of the teachers and take down the school director.

[emkay 10,341]

2 hours ago, sonazeit said:

For my third grader,

 

any TTers know of in Germany a school with strong direct instruction (teaching) in Math? And where a child may do in Math single subject acceleration? Someplace which can really teach a kid who is towards the 'MINT' side?

 

Preferably public but private okay if not expensive. She would like a normal ('Regel', or 'Normalo') school but Hamburg is going further ahead to phase these out. 

 

I only know that Thüringen and Bayern are generally faster-paced and not so Inklusion-oriented as Hamburg and so will have still more normal schools, but that does not help me find a specific school to contact.

 

@Jeba - thanks for the tip on Krativitaetsgymnasium, they seem to be pro-teaching. I have just contacted them.

 

@janjan I put my daughter on the Brecht waiting list even though I hear they lack direct instruction in Math because it is the only MINT Grundschule in Hamburg at this time. If you know a public or not-expensive private school in Hamburg which does direct instruction and might consider single subject acceleration for Math please telll me.

 

But from what I see on the further eroding of what is left of MINT teaching in Hamburg Gymnasium school mornings, if I want to keep my child in Germany she has to move to a different Bundesland for Gymnasium anyway.

 

If I can get her into a faster-paced in MINT subject school with direct instruction and real schoolbooks, then she can just go with the flow and it would be less frustrating for her.

 

Are you talking about changing your daughter's Grundschule or are you looking for her future secondary school? Perhaps best concentrate on finding a suitable secondary option as there's only a year and a bit to go...assuming Hamburg Grundschulen go up to the 4th class. 

 

If you find a suitable school, perhaps they have entrance criteria relating to the MINT subjects. Maybe better than the upheaval of changing Grundschule again at this stage, look to get private tuition in the necesssry subjects to give your daughter the best chance of gaining a placement. 

[Guest]

I agree emkay, but after asking around there is no strong well-struktured MINT teaching Gymnasium in Hamburg.

Public Gymnasium ín Hamburg do not have any academic entrance requirements.

The child psycology doctor advised me to asap change her school. She pleads for a 'normal school' as well.

Any ideas on Grundschule with strong Math and co. direct instruction in a Bundesland with a strong public MINT Gymnasium?

I could even put her with same age children this way. This I cannot do in Hamburg.

 

 

[keroleen 806]

Is that what you mean? My school in BaWü (and probably plenty of other Gymnasien) had two options: Two foreign languages and MINT profile or three foreign languages (and thus modern languages profile). I didn't think it was that difficult to find a suitable school - there should even be one in Schleswig-Holstein nearby.

[emkay 10,341]

19 minutes ago, sonazeit said:

I agree emkay, but after asking around there is no strong well-struktured MINT teaching Gymnasium in Hamburg.

Public Gymnasium ín Hamburg do not have any academic entrance requirements.

The child psycology doctor advised me to asap change her school. She pleads for a 'normal school' as well.

Any ideas on Grundschule with strong Math and co. direct instruction in a Bundesland with a strong public MINT Gymnasium?

I could even put her with same age children this way. This I cannot do in Hamburg.

 

 

Sounds like your daughter has had a very difficult time.  How are her expectations formed in order for her to plead for a 'normal school'?  

 

I can only say that where we are in Hessen, the Grundschulen that I know of, teach maths in what I believe is a normal, structured way...textbooks, workbooks, proper teachers, regular tests etc. The other MINT subjects aren't covered at this early age.  My daughter attends a semi private Gymnasium where the other subjects were introduced gradually in year 5 and 6. 

 

As you are prepared to relocate, have you tried contacting the Schulministerium of each land?  I contacted the Hessen Schulministerium years ago regarding learning issues and found them very helpful.  

[Guest]

@keroleen, thanks for the info!

 

@emkay,

My daughter would find normal the sort of teaching you described.

She had teaching before and still does in the non-core subjects, and even sees teaching in books she reads, and online too.

School change was primarily for commute safety. I am unfortunately a single parent and the commute safety situation for my daughter had become bad.

If I were not a single parent she would still be there.

I would not expect a Schulministerium to be helpful in selecting a school, because I am not even a resident yet, but will give it a try!

 

@krieg, I have no interest in suing or taking down anyone. I need to find an affordable way to combine safety for my daughter with teaching for her school mornings.

[jeba 4,364]

You also might want to check Montessori schools. There kids can within wide limits choose what to focus on. There are only  few Montessori Gymnasiums though.

[Guest]

@jeba, she seems to need the opposite of Montessori, she wants to be taught together with other children by a teacher and with a schoolbook. She needs more traditional German education style, one teacher in the room teaching the children something new together, clear grade progression, clear test and grading expectations.

[kiplette 8,802]

Niedersachsen is still 'normal' as it were, so can you make a less wild move just a bit south so that she can be back in the regular school system? Or north into Schleswig Holstein? Or have they gone all funky as well?

 

Not easy, if your workplace is not easily accessible from a new out-of-town location, but of you can do it that would be very worthwhile. Maybe a village or small town would have a Hort or Ganztags programme which will keep her safe and occupied while you travel. Are her German grandparents at all interested and capable of being part of her upbringing?

[jeba 4,364]

49 minutes ago, sonazeit said:

@jeba, she seems to need the opposite of Montessori, she wants to be taught together with other children by a teacher and with a schoolbook. She needs more traditional German education style, one teacher in the room teaching the children something new together, clear grade progression, clear test and grading expectations.

Well, she would. At least part of the time. Only during "Freiarbeit" could she choose to focus on what she wants and be supported by a teacher if she wants to (there are usually 2 teachers per class and classes are small). Plus she could use Montessori teaching materials which are ingenious - especially for maths. There would ne no grading though during elemantary school as the philosophy is that good kids already know how good they are (the material will tell them) and poor students shouldn´t become demotivated. For children who are eager to learn Montessori is brilliant because they can fly as fast as they are able to. That´s to much lesser extent the case for those who aren´t so keen because they have too much leeway to not work hard.

[snowingagain 5,465]

As she is interested in maths, has  she been participating in the extra Mathe Zirkel courses available for interested 3 and 4 Klasse children? 

[RedMidge 6,638]

10 hours ago, kiplette said:

Niedersachsen is still 'normal' as it were, so can you make a less wild move just a bit south so that she can be back in the regular school system? Or north into Schleswig Holstein? Or have they gone all funky as well?

 

Not easy, if your workplace is not easily accessible from a new out-of-town location, but of you can do it that would be very worthwhile. Maybe a village or small town would have a Hort or Ganztags programme which will keep her safe and occupied while you travel. Are her German grandparents at all interested and capable of being part of her upbringing?

Very funky up here-!

[Guest]

The pull out has no teaching either so is a negative. She needs accelerated instruction of new material  (compared to Hamburg average) and not differentiation (just another worksheet). Hamburg seems to have banned single-subject-acceleration, which she finds very demotivating.

 

Yes, she has nice German grandparents in Niedersachsen in a decent school district but they rightly seem to think that with two parents and only one child we should handle it ourselves.

 

S-H has no job for me, so no go.

 

She is a no go at Montessori, she wants fast instruction, direct instruction, clear grading and a class being taught together - she needs classic-style teaching and single-subject acceleration in Math (unless maybe I guess some Gymnasium in the South are fast-paced in Math so she would not need, that would be great).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[snowingagain 5,465]

@Sonazeit Did you investigate the extra maths classes for 3 and 4th grade children?

[Guest]

The class, or Kurs, or pull out  is just another room with children being handed different 'Aufgaben' about 40 minutes a week so the school can say they 'differentiate'. The children go to a different room, a man comes in, hands them worksheets (or places them in front of a computer to spend their time doing Aufgaben on it) and then goes back to another room to Babysit other inmates.  Waste of taxpayer money and my daughter's time.  There is no normal class, let alone any extra class. CDU here has complained about this lack of teaching but they are a minority in Hamburg so ineffective. This problem of aversion to teaching Math is found even in private schools here. 

 

Even if a parent were to offer to pay for a part-time teacher on an honorary basis for this group of children, it would be refused. Parent input is reduced to giving money to buy built-in cabinets to hold ... guess what .. more Aufgaben.

[snowingagain 5,465]

38 minutes ago, sonazeit said:

The class, or Kurs, or pull out  is just another room with children being handed different 'Aufgaben' about 40 minutes a week so the school can say they 'differentiate'.

 

This does not sound like the MINT Mathe Zirkel classes I have heard about for children with a particular interest in maths.  Are you sure this is the same as the Kur or "pull out" class?  That sounds like it is only for pupils attending that particular Grundschule?

 

Edit:  Well it's not the same, as the Mathe Zirkel classes necessarily take place out of the core school time.   I am a bit puzzled over your objection to your daughter having to solve Aufgaben in Maths ... I think that is the whole point!

[emkay 10,341]

1 hour ago, sonazeit said:

She is a no go at Montessori, she wants fast instruction, direct instruction, clear grading and a class being taught together - she needs classic-style teaching and single-subject acceleration in Math (unless maybe I guess some Gymnasium in the South are fast-paced in Math so she would not need, that would be great).

 

 

I don't wish to sound critical though I find it quite amazing that your daughter, at her age, is able to determine the style of education she 'wants'. As I'm writing this, my daughter is teaching 3 3rd class kids English. I really can't imagine any of them having the wherewithal to be in anyway forthright about their educational needs. 

 

You both have most certainly had a traumatic time in dealing with the education system in Hamburg. To me, it sounds astonishingly bad.  I mentioned the teaching methods that you have described to a UK primary teacher friend of mine and she was horrified

 

There are English sayings...Every mother's duck is a swan...and, Every mother's clown is an Einstein. I know that all parents want the best for their kids, quite rightly so.  But, are any of your daughter's wants actually mainly yours?  Also quite understandable if so.  You mentioned in a previous posts, your daughter's psychologist. I don't wish to pry though are her issues only related to her education?  You said also that the psychologist recommended a change of school.  Can he/she give you any actual assistance or even some kind of referral?

 

Have any other TT Hamburg parents offered any advice?

[kiplette 8,802]

snowingagain - in Maths they are self-directing and the teacher is not teaching, but tutoring, and since they won't make groups of kids who are at a similar point in understanding, there is never going to be enough time for everyone, with the result that most kids are DIY-ing their way through the tasks. This suits some kids, but not small sonazeit.

 

or that is my understanding of the situation from reading all of the posts.

 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UioIvMyc1jI is a Galileo video which I think shows a similar system running brilliantly. Hamburg schools were on the crappy side anyway compared to the national average, and my completely subjective suspicion is that they thought this would make them look more awesome without actually necessarily improving standards.

 

 The Mathe Zirkel stuff you mention - is it in Hamburg? The educational stuff does not usually transfer nationwide (I am in the middle of learning for the A Burger Test and that was back around question 120 or something)...

 

sonazeit - could you move to the edge of Niedersachsen or SH and still commute to work? So that your kid could go to school in the other county and you could still work? It would be crappy, for sure, but possibly better than the current stress.

 

3 hours ago, sonazeit said:

Yes, she has nice German grandparents in Niedersachsen in a decent school district but they rightly seem to think that with two parents and only one child we should handle it ourselves.

Do they know how bad it is for her? Presumably they do know that their son does bugger all, or has that changed?

[snowingagain 5,465]

 

 

39 minutes ago, kiplette said:

The Mathe Zirkel stuff you mention - is it in Hamburg?

 

Yes, it is a MINT backed scheme operating at Grundschule in Hamburg for children in the 3 and 4 class who have a particular interest in maths.

 

And I suspect small Sonazeit is doing fine,  grade wise.  But something extra curricular like this with other children who enjoy maths sounds ideal.