What do you like about the German public schools?

[Gambatte 972]

Sonazeit,

why are you so bothered about science and maths?

I know many great scientist that did not bother much about science until their teens. Even science Nobel prize winners attended normal schools and started science seriously only in their teens.

 

Just for the record: I'm a scientist, and a parent of a 4yo child in German Kita. I was obsessed with science since my childhood and went to a school focused on science but many of my now-colleagues were not, I don't think "having started science earlier" gives me an edge on my role today.

[DDBug 1,665]

She's FOUR. For crying out loud.

 

Mom's taking things a bit too seriously - even for the German system. Let her be a kid. Third grade and mom's stress (hopefully not hers) about the next school will come soon enough.

 

PS - sonazeit, to be a "scientist" there are several school options open, remember that in 6 years for her sake and your sanity.

[anne k 3,643]

You want to avoid school kids who don't speak grammatically correct German? So you do mean you want a school with few Ausländer? Or do you mean you want a school in a rich area mainly populated by well-behaved academics' children? Or that you want a school in an area known for its Hochdeutsch (in which case you can rule out Saxony)?

 

And you'd like to know the best Grundschulen in Germany? Here's a website giving prizes to the best schools in Germany. The jury's choice might not be quite the same as yours, of course.

[janjan 742]

There's a Primary school for gifted children in Hamburg - Brecht?- but I'm sure it's not co-ed. My daughter's friend went to a girls' Gymnasium in Hamburg but that was Catholic.I think your best bet would be to move to a very expensive area of Hamburg and then you'd get a School full of rich high--achievers, but that's stress, too.

[jeba 4,364]

here you might find something interesting. When my kids were at that age I thought of sending them to the Krativitaetsgymnasium in Leipzig, which was pretty impressive (not only academically, but also because they offered Ganztagsbetreuung even during school holidays). But the principal advised me that it might not be the best place for my daughter (who was traumatised by her mom's death). Otherwise I might have opted for that route. They do offer Grundschule as well, but not sure whether you'd regard them cheap enough.

[anne k 3,643]

That website with the prizes also has a map search feature, I see, though it is hard to work out which schools were just nominated and which won. The Brecht school is on there, and some others - you have to enter a postcode.

http://schulen.schulpreis-akademie.de/schools

[Guest]

@Gambatte

I mentioned science and math as opposed to schools focusing on say theater, religion, music, Chinese, Turkish, Spanish. I'll search Germany-wide for a school/job in same city or town match since moving to Othmarschen, Sasel or Volksdorf within Hamburg for a better school might not be for me achievable.

 

@DDBug

I look now because I want to avoid moving our daughter twice. Her Kita will from Aug. 2013 have a big change in activity focus due to very few children my daughter's age or older and the public school she's assigned to based on address is not appropriate for her.

 

@anne K

If it’s grammatically correct and the children are acting civilized that would be great! Thanks for the list and search method!

 

@janjan

I agree that the right address is key. I probably cannot get to a better address in Hamburg so I need to search Germany-wide, especially as most any school in Baden-Württenberg or Bayren is probably much better than today's average Hamburg school.

 

@ jeba

Thanks for mentioning a specific school. I agree, good school means appropriate for the child at the time.

[anne k 3,643]

Do report back if you end up at a super-school; I'd be most curious to see if it turns out to be worth moving for!

[Guest]

One huge advantage of the German schools is their unbeatable price tag.

 

With the savings (compared to a private school), you can easily afford to hire a tutor for any subject you think the German school does not cover in sufficient depth, like English.

[vesparia 2,161]

 

You might want to check out Montessori schools. Especially for math their teaching materials are excellent beyond praise.

 

For those who are looking out for maths and science, I can only second this opinion. I work in a Montessori primary school and every day I'm amazed at what our kids can (and want to) do at an early age. The materials really do help, especially in maths.

 

As for proper German, some schools (including ours) employ the 'writing through reading' and 'phonetic German' approach. Some parents are against this, however many parents are for it. We use a combination of 'Tinto', 'ich kann lesen' Sternchenheft, vocabulary boxes and a whole bunch of materials. Most kids are cool with this method, although some kids get on better with the so-called 'Fibel-Heft' which is more the traditional way of learning German. A good school shouldn't rely on one method and should be able to explain to you what methods they offer and how they tailor said methods for each child. The method should work for the child, not the other way round.

 

Another tip (if you really have time to spare, and your German is advanced enough to understand 'Amtsdeutsch') is to get to know the Lehrplan (curriculum) for your Bundesland. Both state schools and 'Freie Schulen' have to follow the Lehrplan.

 

I know some people are against 'free schools', and that's fine. Everyone has their own opinion. My school is a 'free school' (not attached to a church, but a concept) so I'm happy to answer questions about such schools should you have them.

[westvan 9,706]

 

As for proper German, some schools (including ours) employ the 'writing through reading' and 'phonetic German' approach. Some parents are against this, however many parents are for it.

 

I was just reading an article entitled "Die Recht Schreip-Katerstrofe [sic] - Warum unser Kinder nicht mehr richtig schreiben lernen" in a recent edition of Spiegel magazine and the 'Lesen durch Schreiben' method received a huge amount of of criticism. My kids are 17 and 20 and (sucessfully) learned to read and write in elementary school using a different method so I can't really say if the criticism is warranted or not.

 

 

The method should work for the child, not the other way round.

Right.

[vesparia 2,161]

Yeah, we've (my colleagues and I) all had a look at that article too. As I said, not everyone is a fan of the 'phonetic German' method. All of my colleagues dismissed the article considering the person they interviewed hasn't been teaching for a good many years, plus the idea that German has 'over 4000 different 'sounds'' is laughable. It doesn't. That in itself makes the 'expert' less credible. Have a look at the comments section; you'll see how divided parents are about the topic.

 

What *is* important is that there are sadly too many schools which rely on one book/method alone. The general opinion in my school (I say general because my main teaching area is English and French, so I've asked the German-focussed teachers) is that it really depends on the child. Some kids really do well with the 'writing through reading' method, others don't. It's up to the school to cater for each child. As someone who helps out with German (I do so-called 'Zweitbesitzung' for German and maths), the 'writing through reading' needs a lot of support from home; the child should be reading a lot at home to (and with) their parent/s. For some kids, regardless of how much they read at home, the older methods work better. There is no 'one-size-fits-all' method, which is why schools need to tailor.

[westvan 9,706]

Thanks for the feedback!

[anne k 3,643]

The difference between the "new" method and the traditional method is that with the traditional method, children are only allowed to spell words that they can spell following the rules they have learned at each stage. So if they have only learned "n" and "a" then they can only write "Na", "Nan" or "Nana". It's a bit like how you learn ten-finger typing :-) Children should thus (theoretically) be able to spell all the words they are told to and get full marks from year 1.

 

Using the new method, on the other hand, they are taught all the basic rules together and then allowed to try spelling any word they like straight away. Parents who are used to children coming home with no spelling mistakes, even at age 6, are then horrified when their child tries out creative spellings. Having never come across anything like this before they assume that the child will get used to spelling words wrong and it will be hard to shake off the habit.

 

As English is not as phonetic, there's not even any attempt to limit children to words they "should be able to spell": instead they are encouraged to try out spellings and more emphasis is placed on allowing children to write what they want. At age 5.5 I had to write what I'd done at the weekend. A sample (my mum sent me some of my old school workbooks): "I saw the old people hool [hall?] I saw a lady ho was blind and she koodnot see and sumone was helping her pooshing the weilcher because they hav to". Clearly I know some of the "key words" and someone has helped me with the more common words, but none of the words I couldn't guess have any red on them.

 

In the UK it is understood that you'll learn how to spell over time. In Germany people are not familiar with that concept.

[kato 3,560]

If this thread was open to non-parents i'd comment on your last sentence that that's because that concept doesn't work well with the German language, in particular with multilingual children. I'd also comment that the socalled "traditional method" referred to (letter-based synthesis method) hasn't been in use since World War I, and in Prussia actually was outlawed since 1872. Reformpädagogik introduced the Ganzheitsmethode, which was used until the 1960s-1970s and then replaced by the way the current parental generation in Germany learned writing - through syllable-based analytic-synthetic methods. I'd also refer to reading this first as a more suitable approach to the topic.

[vesparia 2,161]

 

"The difference between the "new" method and the traditional method is that with the traditional method, children are only allowed to spell words that they can spell following the rules they have learned at each stage. So if they have only learned "n" and "a" then they can only write "Na", "Nan" or "Nana"."

 

Yup, that's the 'Fibelheft' that we use in our school. The kid essentially learns the letters in the 'wrong' order (so not a,b,c...) but in the order of importance. You then progress from 'Mama' (words only containing two letters) to words containing a combination of different letters. There is a phonetic element to it too, as the kids learn 'A wie Apfel', '/b/' wie Banane' rather than the actual 'name' of each letter, so to speak.

 

"Using the new method, on the other hand, they are taught all the basic rules together and then allowed to try spelling any word they like straight away."

 

I have to admit that I don't know this 'all-in-one' method. Each school to their own, I guess. Our kids are presented with pictures which they then have to write. For example, the child is presented with a picture of an apple (for example), 'Apfel'. They are encouraged to 'dissect' the word, so the kid starts with 'ahhhh'. The sound 'ahhh' goes with 'A', so they write 'A'. Then they move on to 'pf', find 'pf' on their reference chart (our kids have a 'Tintohaus') and then write 'pf' and so on until they indeed have 'Apfel'. You do get some creative spelling, especially as the 'schwa' is a bugger to teach. This means that you do often see 'Wasser' written as 'Wassr'. Loan words are also tough: 'Komputa' and 'Ti schert' are common but are sorted out with time. Kids are encouraged to write stories once they've got the basics down and have completed their Tinto and 'ich kann lesen' books, which is usually around Klasse 2 (although some kids manage this quicker and, in turn, some kids need longer). Some kids want to write stories straight away, so who am I to stop them? Whatever works best for them :)

[anne k 3,643]

The traditional method I referred to is the one used in both the primary schools my children used. It's referred to as the 'usual' method by the other parents, at least. It involves a thing called the Fibel. The method I referred to as the new method is known here as the Schweizer method, and I've only heard it described by parents at other schools. From what other parents have told me, it is not a method they are familiar with.

[vesparia 2,161]

Fibel is pretty cool. It's solid and kids like it, although it isn't as 'fun' (according to the kids). As you said, they learn letters in the 'wrong' order (so not a,b,c...) but in order of importance, so to speak. As you said, kids learn to write simple words (usually 'mama' first) and then build up to more complex words as they learn more letters. There is an element of phonetics to it ('b' for example is not called by its name, but by its phonetic sound) but not as much as other methods. Fibel also exposes kids to 'Schreibschrift' (cursive) much earlier. Does cause confusion though when they are presented with books, though.

[Kazalphaville 1,813]

 

As English is not as phonetic, there's not even any attempt to limit children to words they "should be able to spell": instead they are encouraged to try out spellings and more emphasis is placed on allowing children to write what they want. At age 5.5 I had to write what I'd done at the weekend. A sample (my mum sent me some of my old school workbooks): "I saw the old people hool [hall?] I saw a lady ho was blind and she koodnot see and sumone was helping her pooshing the weilcher because they hav to". Clearly I know some of the "key words" and someone has helped me with the more common words, but none of the words I couldn't guess have any red on them.In the UK it is understood that you'll learn how to spell over time. In Germany people are not familiar with that concept.

 

You haven't heard about the current "synthetic phonics" approach the UK government has deemed must be part of the curriculum now (based on the Clackmannshire study and subsequent "Rose Report - Simple View of Reading" in 2006), which points out that, if taught in a certain way, English is far more phonetic than we give it credit for? It's pretty much like "Lesen durch Schreiben". Phonetic spelling is now an expectation and "invented spelling" is on the way out (until next time it's back in fashion). Now it's all about learning patterns and discovering rules and exceptions. I do like it, and it does work, but I'm all for a mixed "balanced literacy" approach since not all kids learn in the same way. And I detest the ridiculous "Phonics Test" all Year 1 kids in the UK must go through. Pointless clap trap.

 

Oops. Not a parent so ignore me.

[kato 3,560]

Just a clarifying nag from the silent background: The Schweizer Methode / Schweizer Modell is Lesen durch Schreiben. It's referred to as such because the guy who developed it forty years ago was Swiss. It was developed pretty much concurrently with the syllable-based analytic-synthetic method.