What do you like about the German public schools?

[katheliz 17,879]

Well, yes, school is always a pressure. But I think most children respond positively to the structure of the German primary grades. On first coming to Germany and seeing all those little kids rushing around in a Brownian movement with those heavy packs on their backs, we wonder how they manage. But, beginning in the first grade, every evening Vierling would empty his school bag and then put into it only the supplies he'd need the next day. They're not expected to haul every single item around on a daily basis. Vierling liked knowing that there was a schedule, that there wouldn't be any surprises. Was it more rigid than in the US? Perhaps, but he'd had only two weeks of school in California before returning to Germany, so he couldn't make a comparison. He had a kind and caring teacher, which always helps.

Children like structure. It makes them feel secure, whether at school or at home.

[Prosie 230]

That's why I was careful to say I could only speak from my own experience. My daughters had a lovely, kindly teacher for their first two years of Grundschule. But she was so scatty and disorganised they never knew if they were coming or going. Neither did I, as they could be sent home at random times despite what the timetable said. No reliable structure or schedule for us! They still had fun at that stage, though. The pressure came more in later years, starting with the final year of Grundschule when recommendations for secondary school were being made.

[katheliz 17,879]

Prosie, of course you're right. We all have our individual, anecdotal experiences. But a careful reader of the posts on TT will give the new forum member a sense of the personalities of the various posters. There are the optimists and the pessimists, and this shows in our posts. There are the few members who themselves have been in the German school system and I wish more of them would talk about their experiences. The parents of children currently in school in Germany can give, again individual and anecdotal, comparisons of the German systems with the UK, Canada, the US, etc.

[silty1 3,635]

My kid is just finishing Grade 10 at a Gymnasium. What I like about her school is the challenge they've given her. They don't have grade inflation here, at least not at her school anyway. It is difficult at her school to get an A, but that's a good thing because if a kid is capable, he'll work harder to get it.

I also like the curriculum. She brought home stuff in Grade 8 and 9 French that I was studying in Grade 12 or first year university. In German she was recently given a test based on a text out of Die Zeit newspaper talking about media theory. I doubt if we got anything similar before Grade 12. Same with a lot of her math and science stuff. What they study here is always way ahead of what I was given at the same age. It could be I'm comparing this era with my own - things have advanced a lot since I was in High School - but reports back from friends who are studying in the States right now confirm: it's way easier over there.

I also like the fact they get the kids thinking at an early age about what they want to do in life. She was on her first practicum in Grade 9. It's a great way for them to get out and see what the adult workaday world is like. I got nothing comparable... oh right, a pamphlet on career choices.

[Prosie 230]

 

 

Speaking purely from my own experience, if you're looking for unpressured, enjoyable learning you'll need to look outside the regular German system.

 

A couple of important points have occurred to me.

 

As I've said, the pressure for us began towards the end of Grundschule in the run-up towards Grundschulempfehlung, where grades and (in our case) the whim of the teacher decided at age 10 on the future school for your child. In our area the parents now have the right to override that recommendation (without the rather onerous appeals process), so that pressure has been relieved. There is also the option of sending children to a school which makes the split at age 13. Or, with the return of G9 (see below) I would imagine the flexibility of changing schools later ought to be an option again.

 

Also, our older daughter reaached Gymnasium the year they introduced G8. That caused the most enormous pressure as the curriculum was never properly condensed and it was just one great slog, for teachers as well as pupils, to get through the syllabus in time. Now, just as my daughter is leaving, the school has decided to go back to G9 for the next intake. Again, I would think that should make a big difference.

[anne k 3,643]

Kiplette mentioned the fact that you can get some excellent teachers. This is something that we have experienced too: some teachers have really stood out and made a difference. When you are visiting schools on their open days it is worth trying to meet the class teacher, as they will be spending the most time with your child. If the class teacher says anything along the lines of 'I was brought back from the verge of retirement and did not want to teach the class', start running and do not stop. If the class teacher says something like 'I love working with children, taking them to the theatre, going on class trips, helping them individually', wrap your arms around her legs and do not let go. Ask other people at the school what they think of that specific teacher, not just the school as a whole.

 

Also, don't listen to me moaning. I am a foreigner and grew up in a different system, in a different society. Listen to the Germans who have been through the school system and never noticed anything untoward, i.e. almost every German: though they might remember a nasty teacher or laugh about how they hated a certain subject, when you grow up with a school system you mostly just accept it, warts and all, same as we did. Our children are growing up with it.

[Frechesmaedl 16]

Dear Prosie,

 

I would love to be a fly on the wall to your PM to Muchado about your experiences with the Grundschule and the Übertritt. We are living abroad, but my daughter will attend the local German school here, starting first grade in September. I am cautious that she not be put into a box by powers that be, but I feel that it is already happening. Somehow, I think that they believe that not having a German mother and speaking English as her mother tongue means that her German will be completely im Eimer. My friend is already experiencing this. She is American and her husband is German. Their daughter has attended German Kitas for about 6-7 hrs a day since she was two and (to my ears at least) is indistiguishable from a typical German child in her speech. However, the teacher has told her that her daughter's German is behind that of the other children and that the German papa must "read to her more often in German". This is highly suspicious as she has spent most of her waking hours with German speakers, rather than her mother since the age of two.

 

Anyway, I digress... I just want my daughter to have the same opportunities as German children and not to be disadvantaged versus them. I got the runaround at the local school here, last year, because we wanted our daughter to start first grade according to the Bavarian schedule - she is a "Musskind" as her birthday falls shortly before the end of September. Anyway, the school told me that they strictly adhered to the cut off date of June 30. Lo and behold I found out that exceptions had been made for two children whose birthdays were after that of my child. The first boy had a father who holds a job at an important company here and the second has a mother who was a teacher at the school. After calling the school out on their deception, I was told by the school director that the former child was an "Überflieger" who could "schon lesen", this was said with a big cheesy smile on his face. I told him that he should call my daughter out of class and have her read for him if this was the criteria. His smile was immediately replaced by a frown and he proceeded to tell me that my child was "ein ganz normales Kind" and that she would not be permitted to have an exception made for her as it was for these two boys. He would not discuss the boys' qualifications further because of "Datenschutz" blah blah.

 

Then the KG teacher tried to make the issue of the cut off date into one that called into question my daughter's social and mental competence. Several months earlier she had told my husband and I that our daughter was "cognitiv sehr weit". After this issue with Einschulung arose, she said that out daughter was merely "gut", but that a child needs other competencies for the first grade and that she was too shy, etc., etc. It turned into a personal battle and other teachers were pulled into the fray. After leaving us to stew, she then announced that our daughter would be allowed a two week "Probezeit" in the Vorschule, but that she could not "guarantee" that the new teacher would then say she was qualified to stay there.

 

My family left our expat home for almost half a year and, while in Germany, my daughter has an Einschulungstest in Bavaria, which she passed with flying colors. The German expat school said that it wanted to "test" her again to assess her competence for first grade and that it "MUST", even though she was qualified for Bavaria. We were abroad during the Einschulungstest at this expat German school so could not participate. The head of the elementary school then said that, given that she had the results from Bavaria, my daughter would not have to be retested (ha ha!).

 

At the meeting for all first grade parents, a few weeks ago, my daughter was addressed in English by this head of the elementary school and she proceeded to ask my daughter if she could speak German . Its not as if she could have forgotten that she passed the Einschulungstest in Bavaria and, ergo, should be able to speak German - there will only be a handful of students in the first grade this fall. I just think that she boxed her in - foreign mommy, especially of American origin, renders child physically and mentally incapable of speaking German.

 

Anyway, my experiences - as meagre as they are - have not been good so far. I would love to hear from you Prosie!!!

[Prosie 230]

Hi Frechesmaedl

 

No problem; I’ll send you a copy of the PM

 

Sorry to hear you feel you’ve been discriminated against. I have to say that’s not been one of our issues. Our family is all British and we speak English at home but I don’t think we’ve come across a single teacher who’s had a problem with that. We’ve had our battles with the system, but nothing that German kids haven’t had to put up with, too.

 

Sorry if I wasn’t clear when I said in “in our case” we were subject to the whim of the teacher at Grundschulempfehlung time. I meant the particular teacher rather than our particular child. As far as we could tell the teacher simply didn’t like children. Any children – well, especially boys.

[RainyDays 2,453]

This won't go down well, but the post by Frechesmaedl illustrates well why parents aren't better qualified than anyone else to neutrally judge entire school systems. They have a vested interest in their child to get the best education, to "succeed". It is even seen as a personal slight to be told that their child "is perfectly normal". What is wrong with normal? It seems that school is often the playground for the parents' ambitions. If I understand the post correctly, the OP's daughter hadn't turned six yet at the cut-off date, she would do so almost 3 months later, so she was a Kann-Kind. Now it could be that the teachers and the head were idiots, but it could also be that their assessment was spot-on. Cognitive, physical and emotional-social development can indeed be on such different levels that one more year in a Kindergarten is the better choice. Mind you, in Bavaria the range of possible school start is exceptionally wide, from children who just turned 5 (exceptions) to 6 years plus.

[jodessa 139]

Believe it or not, I like the shorter day. My daughter is in first grade, so I am not sure my opinion will stay the same further down the line...but for now, I like that learning is seen as something that happens ALL the time. The basic R's are taught, and the children are expected to use and practice them in everyday life. I like that my daughter does not have to deal with a long day of school (till 3:30) and come home with homework. My daughter is in a Hort. It is fantastic! They offer many different activities, and stress that the children need to make their own choices, as they do not have to participate in any extras unless they want to. The only things they must do are eat and homework...but even there, they choose when.

 

My fears are that there is less room for creativity within the school system...i fear the curriculum is too ridged and team work and cooperation are frowned upon. I don't see as many projects...class writes a play, a song etc... I hope to be proven wrong. We are lucky that for the first two year our daughter will have a great teacher. That makes all the difference wherever you are and in whatever school system you are in.

 

I am a parent and have my BA in Elementary Education. If you ever feel like having a "lets talk about schools session, please PM me. I too can NOT let it go and am always finding out more and more about the system. Already looking into the "next level" and what it all means.

[katheliz 17,879]

 

Cognitive, physical and emotional-social development can indeed be on such different levels that one more year in a Kindergarten is the better choice.

 

Exactly. I learned that too late, to my child's great disadvantage.

[CarolynS 139]

My daughter was invited to participate in a full year of vorschule (two hours a week) at the local grammar school while she was in her last year of kindergarden. At first I thought, wow, this is great a leg up. Then I realized it was just for the kids who had one or two foreign parents, then I felt sort of discriminated against. She's lived in Germany since she was two months old, for goodness sakes, she doesn't have special needs.

 

But then, I changed my mind. My daughter is getting a leg up. She loves the vorschule and brags to her friends that she's already in schule. She's learned all her letters and numbers already and may just breeze through first grade. I'll always fight to have her not held back for any reason, but if they want to offer her special classes, special tutoring, or special anything because she not German, bring it on! Milk that system.

[nysponjevic 3]

Hi Prosie

If I am not asking too much please forward me your PM as well. I am offered a job in Sindelfingen ( Stuttgart area) this October. We use to live there in 2007 for a year. Now my son is 8 years old and I am planing to have him repeat second grade in German school since he doesn't speak any German. He is in Gifted and Talented school in NYC and doing very well. I am scared to death how will all this transition to German school affect him. He is very outgoing and happy kid. I am sorry if I am shifting the original subject of this post. Just trying to gather as much information as possible from this helpful forum. If any of you is familiar with schools in this area your suggestions will be greatly appreciated .

[katheliz 17,879]

My gifted and talented fifth-grader came to Germany towards the end of the school year and spent two months in the village school In September she again started fifth grade; at the end of that school year - now she was turning twelve - she advanced to the Gymnasium to spend a third year in fifth grade. She went on to make her Abitur. This was in a day when very little consideration was given to non-German speaking students. Even though her experience was in Rosenheim, in Bavaria, I'm sure your boy will do just fine.

[arunadasi 7,075]

 

PISA, schmisa. As I said, you have to be willing and eager to learn. Education does not just happen, it's a two-way street.

 

Both my kids were both those things. It still went VERY wrong, as some TT'ers know. And I am a VERY positive person. For that reason I'll shut up now.

[Prosie 230]

Hi nysponjevic

 

PM on its way as requested I’ll stress once again though that it’s only my experiences, in my area. Schools (and teachers) really do vary quite dramatically from place to place. And I’m quite a distance from Sindelfingen I’m afraid.

 

I think you’re doing the right thing putting your child back a year to allow time to learn German. Have you got any support lined up for that? I’ve related the story of my Dutch neighbours somewhere on this forum before. They also had a child going into year two straight after moving to Germany. They arrived in time for their kids to have the summer holidays here before starting school, and they picked up an amazing amount of German just playing with all the other kids in the street all summer. They were very bright girls who settled in quickly and went on to do well at Gymnasium. Though I have to say that was more a credit to them and their pro-active parents (plus my daughter acting as unofficial translator) than to any extraordinary efforts on the part of the school.

 

As I understand it Gymnasien in Baden-Württemberg can now choose if they want an eight or nine-year course (G8 or G9). I would strongly recommend, if and when the time comes, trying to find one that does G9.

 

Hope your move goes well.

[Freising 503]

Something you might like about german public schools:

Rarely does a whole graduating class fail the final exam.

 

Ganzer Jahrgang fällt in Schweinfurt durchs Fachabi

Sorry it´s in German. I´m sure the Local will soon provide a Google translated version.

[PandaMunich 16,909]

Well, yes, that is what happens at private schools that are only staatlich genehmigt.

Kind of a confirmation of my opinion of the kinds of pupils who attend staatlich genehmigte schools.

[kato 3,560]

@Panda

 

EPFOS is not staatlich anerkannt because they're too new. To move up to that from their current staatlich genehmigt status they have to have two-thirds of their students passing in two consecutive years. The current Abitur class is the first one the school has had.

 

What raises my eyebrows more is the tuition of only 140 Euro per month, which for a private school not supported by one of the churches is low, to say the least. According to BR the students reported that this low tuition was essentially bought with teachers who did not necessarily know the subjects they taught, and with long Unterrichtsausfall in core subjects - however it's not like those two items are not the same at other schools.

[anne k 3,643]

Ersatzschulen (independent schools providing traditional exams) are only allowed to charge up to 200 euro a month.

Sonderungsverbot