Child starting school this year

[kato 3,560]

 

going straight to Grade 2 at a public school (skip grade one)

 

There are states where you can skip grade one? At the parents insistence maybe even?

 

No wonder North Germany performs that abysmally in comparative testing...

[gemini 2,074]

Just an update. After having to write down, for my non-confrontational German spouse, what to say and ask, he had two conversations with the Principle and it was decided she would not have to attend any further testing.

 

So she is going to 1st grade!!!

[Beuel 4,947]

Congrats. Don't forget the Schultüte ;)

[Kazalphaville 1,813]

Well done Gemini!

[DaveyB2uk 69]

 

Extra testing and putting a child and family through the mill just because the teacher/school/whatever wants an easy life, no.

 

I'd agree with that IF it were the case...but saw nothing in Gemini's post to suggest it is here.

 

 

...and it was decided she would not have to attend any further testing.

 

So she is going to 1st grade!!!

 

That's a weight off your mind. But your original post never said she'd need "further testing" - just proposed her coming in for "scenario where they put kids together like a normal school day to see how they do, and to see if the kids need special help". That's not formal testing in my book.

[anne k 3,643]

That makes things easier, then - those non-confrontational spouses can be very useful :-)

[Loewenherz 316]

 

Only works when there is a support system in place that is planned to cater for it. A child with a heavy special needs situation should have a full-time 1-1 support with them anyway. That requires money and training. Not saying it's easy - far from it - but it can be successful if the right resources are in place. What do you mean by "standard teaching"? Teaching should be differentiated, not standardised.

 

I beg to differ. If a child needs "full-time 1-1 support with them" - why use that precious (and expensive) support to rush them into a programme which is anyway not suited for them? (as the teaching programme is suited for children which are not so severely disabled?)

 

Teaching is standardised - you are supposed to supposed to follow certain program, reach certain progress by certain time - you surely must have run across this idea? Now, the school I was mentioning was one of those "special" schools, where they by design employed different methods, more flexible and more suited to individual children's needs. Still, this school also followed the "standard teaching programme", i.e., again, reaching certain level by certain time, in sync with "Staatschulen" in Bayern.

 

 

I am a teacher and I agree a 100% with Kazaphalville.

Our daughter's kindergarten teacher has mentioned more than once that one particular child needs to be in a special school because of some issues. I sat in the classroom for 45 min. every day last week and saw that she didn't take from any kid except for crying every now and then and being unable to explain why. She is 5. Why should she go to a special school? Oh, that would make life easier for the teachers.

 

That's fine, but as far as I'm concerned nobody was talking about children crying sometimes without reason. We were talking about mentally disabled children.

[Metall 14,557]

Socialization my foot!

 

Aside from my own experience at a certain German Hauptschule (bullying, being ignored by

teachers, the misery of no friends in the oh so socialized class), I have supported several expat

parents struggling with the German school system. (I was saved by changing schools, btw.)

 

I'm sorry to say these cases of English speaking kids from nice families being ignored

and mobbed by pupils and teachers are just a few years old. The system here does not

manage kids who diverge from the standard mold well.

[Kazalphaville 1,813]

Teaching is not standardised (if it is, that explains a lot of the problems in German schools). Curriculum goals are standardised (that is what you are talking about).

 

I'm not talking about mentally disabled children (what an awful description!). I'm talking about all children - gifted, talented, physically-challenged, socially-challenged, emotionally-challenged, with learning difficulties, "normal" children. How the curriculum is taught to students in a mainstream school which practises inclusion is differentiated according to their needs and abilities and all children are supported according to what they need (bit like you described your special school idea). Money for 1-1 (where it is definitely needed in special cases) is available in education systems where they value inclusion above pushing "different" kids into special schools. No point in arguing about it anyway. Inclusion is happening here, right now, by law. The system just has to adapt to make it happen. All they have to do here is to fund it and train teachers to deal with it. Sounds easy but it's not. But it will happen. All children are different anyway. You just have to recognise what they need and adapt accordingly. All children have the right to access to the curriculum and enriched experiences, regardless of their backgrounds, needs and abilities.

 

And you know what? Even "normal" children won't all reach that "certain level by a certain time" because life is not like that and children are not all the same. All we can do is help them as much as possible, looking at their individual needs, to try to do that as best they can. Explains why many education systems across the world are now moving to a developmental continuum assessment structure. But I'm not going to explain and elaborate on pedagogy and educational theories to explain more. It took me years of study to get it and I'm still learning.

 

I don't need to even talk about the consequences of exclusion...

[anne k 3,643]

 

I'm not talking about mentally disabled children (what an awful description!).

Loewenherz's native language is apparently Polish, so she would have a good excuse for misusing the language, but I have to say that I can't see any error in usage there.

 

A mental health condition is considered a disability if it has a long-term effect on your normal day-to-day activity. This is defined under the Equality Act 2010.

(UK government disability rights section)

 

What's the preferred term in your local version of the language?

[Kazalphaville 1,813]

Who said there was an "error in usage"? Choose from one of the terms I gave to see what I prefer. But that's my own personal opinion.

[anne k 3,643]

I said that Loewenherz could have made an error in usage, as she did with 'teaching', because she is not a native speaker of English - but that she didn't make one as far as I can tell: 'mentally disabled' is an accepted description. So I don't understand what is wrong with talking about mentally disabled children, if they are mentally disabled (see that site for the definition). Unless of course 'mentally disabled' is not an accepted term in some countries, which is why I asked if it was used differently where you are from.

 

Or do you just mean that you personally don't like the idea of anyone being described as disabled, i.e. 'having a physical or mental impairment that has a ‘substantial’ and ‘long-term’ negative effect on your ability to do normal daily activities' (UK gov. site again)?

[Kazalphaville 1,813]

As I said, my own personal opinion.

[anne k 3,643]

So would you like all children to go to the same school and be separated into groups with similar learning needs at that school, or would you like children with different learning needs to be grouped together, with assistants helping individuals? I'm not trying to argue with your opinion, just to understand what you are saying.

[Loewenherz 316]

Dear Kazalphavile, I think you have some good ideas and I can see that you have your heart in the right place. I think the differences of our opinions boil down to the fact that we are simply talking about different things altogether.

 

I'm talking about about mentally disabled children. It's not a horrible choice of words - it's a horrible condition, which does exist, and pretending that it doesn't isn't going to help anyone, least the affected children. Please note - I'm not talking about the the children who have problems with attention, or emotions, or let's say legasthenia - but children who are.. so limited that they can only reach the required by school level of skills, including social skills, and knowledge (and that's what schools are primary for - right?) with great difficulties, if at all.

 

I actually had personal experience (through my son) what it looks like when such children are schooled in school set up for normal" children - i.e. children who don't have such great problems. My son has had the "privilege" to go to a private school with a different schooling program, this school became the haven for children who couldn't cope with Staatschulen approach to teaching (by contrast my son's school was supposed to, as I already said, adjust to individual children's needs).

 

I have to say that for most children that was a blessing, and they just bloomed in that school, often after years of (severe) problems in a different setting.

 

But not all. Children with disabilities were also taken on board. Yes, some of them required full time support by a person designated to take care of one specific child, and no, even that didn't help those children to get on well with the program and the other pupils.

 

As I said mental disability does exist, one kid with it was in the same class as my son. Poor kid! Severe problems with attention, following the lesson, learning, getting on with other children. My son disliked him with passion - for this kid would leash out at the others (take away books or toys, push, hit, kick, bite too on few occasions) without a warning. I don't blame him - life must have been very difficult for him (and for his family) and he surely has a very difficult road in front of him.

 

So - no blame, but objectively speaking this kid gained very little and became a major disruption - not following the lesson and actively disturbing other children. That was a very high price to be paid by 90% of his class - and I ask you, paid for what? Inclusion? Was he included just by the fact that he was sitting in the same class? No, he wasn't - the exclusion unfortunately wasn't dependant on other people's attitudes but on his own limitations.

Later on he was moved to special needs school and apparently was doing quite well there last time I heard of him.

 

I repeat - pretending that bad things (mental disability) don't happen is not helpful. If we are not allowed to name things as they are - how on earth are we going to make them better? I see it even as taking away the right of suffering children to be different, to be limited. Pretending that such children are equally suited to perform as well other children (in education and socially) is actually putting them at greater disadvantage - by setting the expectations put on them too high.

 

 

And you know what? Even "normal" children won't all reach that "certain level by a certain time" because life is not like that and children are not all the same.

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Of course not all children will reach the needed level by the time when they are expected to do so - some will stay a year behind.

 

Finally:

 

 

Teaching is not standardised (...). Curriculum goals are standardised (that is what you are talking about).

 

Well, firstly thank you for explaining what I meant - I do indeed wonder sometimes

Seriously - pleeaase, we could stay here arguing all day about the words (and when that is solved there is the punctuation, too ) We both can I agree (I hope!) that the teaching program is pretty standardised in countries with some kind of educational program. This standard wouldn't set all details , say what the teacher should wear (although I hope there are some rules about what they shouldn't!), or how exactly they approach the children etc., nevertheless it will describe the basic methods and what results will be expected in certain time frame.

[Loewenherz 316]

... yes I agree that I might have used the wrong word in case of "teaching" - please just substitute with whatever make more sense :)

[katheliz 17,879]

Oh, for God's sake, would the three of you get a room!

[Loewenherz 316]

three of whom? Is that a proposition? :P

[Loewenherz 316]

..btw - only a page ago Kazalphaville was talking about exclusion..

[Kazalphaville 1,813]

Lowenherz, let me assure you that as a teacher and curriculum manager with many years experience, having myself taught children with autistic spectrum disorders, selective mutism and a wide variety of learning difficulties, besides those with blindness, deafness, cerebral palsy, cystic fibrosis and other physical challenges, I am well-aware that mental problems (however we want to term them) in children do exist, which is why I wrote what I wrote. Your reality is yours and mine is mine. You can believe what you want to believe and I'll stick to what I know. Thus you are correct. No need to argue.

 

Anne, my experience is with mixed classes where children with needs (whatever these are, even for those kids who will not reach the end of year goals without help) are planned for with an IEP (individual education plan) to target those needs within the mainstream classroom. This plan includes differentiation to reach curriculum goals and support strategies, indicating extra adult support or other means as appropriate. This is the norm when schools practice inclusion.