Child starting school this year

[westvan 9,706]

This is what they are doing in Lower Saxony, in case anyone's interested. Fördern in Schule - Informationssystem für Schulen in Niedersachsen

[Showem 868]

 

though the current move in Germany now is to get rid of "Sitzenbleiben" through doing exactly what is done in the UK and other English-speaking systems regarding support for children with differing needs.

 

This isn't just about differing needs, this about different starting ages for school. In the UK, you are offered a place in a reception (pre-year/grade 1) to start school during the school year in which they turn 5. Schooling is mandatory from age 5. This means you will have some children starting school who less than a month previously were still only three years old. You can't expect a child who is just 4 to sit and learn. However, expecting a 6 or 7 year old to do this isn't perhaps as unreasonable, certainly for some period of time.

 

I'd also just relax and see what the outcome of the next meeting is before losing my cool too much. Be prepared with understanding what the options might be, but no need to get fuming until they actually say they think there's a problem.

[Kazalphaville 1,813]

That's something Westvan. But still not inclusion. That will be a long time in the making.

[Kazalphaville 1,813]

We're talking about why the child needs extra testing, above and beyond what is normal, before starting school here, nothing to do with school starting age and nothing to do with Reception class in the UK. Or have I missed your point? I have nothing against testing and finding out extra about a kid if there is a valid reason to do so (maybe the school thinks it has) but if it is just because the child doesn't fit the usually expected mould, as Gemini seems to indicate is the case, then I do. But, yes, it is better to wait and find out what is said then and not to worry. It is also good to know what you're getting into, just in case, and that is why I have raised the points I have raised. I'm just trying to show the other side of the coin.

[gemini 2,074]

Thank you K-ville, yes to get back on point, my kid is in no way, shape or form "special needs", which is an entirely different subject. We simply did not follow the "expected" though not "mandatory" path, and thus are paying a price for it. Add to that she is "bilingual" and the assumption is that she can't speak German...which in this case, is absolutely NOT the case.

 

I will not lose my cool until we go through the process, but I am not happy about going through the process. If the German school system wants to make attending school mandatory upon attending Kindergarten as a prerequisite, that is one thing...but they also don't want to pay for it. The paying for it was not an issue in our case, but you can't make it optional and then penalize children if they don't attend and are ready in every other way because of the "assumption" that you have not learned basic social skills.

[Beuel 4,947]

I guess I get a couple of reds for this, but I think inclusion of each and every disabled kid doesn't help. In most cases it's political correctness gone too far. Kids who need to be included will always stick out, and kids who are "normal" will be held back by a kid who would be better off in a school tailored to the needs of kids with disabilities. Kids with disabilities have them, wether you want to pretend they don't exist for pc reasons or not, at least if the disability is not a physical handicap.

If schooling is free there is just not enough money to make them handicapped accesible for half a dozen kids out of 400 or more.

[DaveyB2uk 69]

 

We simply did not follow the "expected" though not "mandatory" path, and thus are paying a price for it.

I'm not quite what price you're paying? As I understand it, they'd like your child to come in again before school starts to check her social skills as she didn't attend Kindergarten and (as you've said yourself) she is a bit shy. Seems a sensible precaution from the school to me - better than the school waiting till a child actually starts school before discovering there's a problem. From what you've written, your child will show she's fine and so the school will see that no further action is necessary.

 

 

Add to that she is "bilingual" and the assumption is that she can't speak German...which in this case, is absolutely NOT the case.

You've also written that they said her German is fine so I'm not sure why you now write that they're assuming she can't speak German!?! There's a contradiction here.

 

Ultimately I do feel you're overreacting a bit, though understandably as starting school is an important thing. But as you and others have written, making judgements on a first impression of just few minutes is not a good idea - hence it makes sense for her to come in again.

[notmename8 76]

What it really boils down to is mother's intuition. The teacher made the comment on the first meeting that is was illegal not to go to kindegarten. That sends up red flags. I would be concerned with the teachers motive. She has already lied once and now she might try to save face as they tend to do. I would go to the test but trust your gut and don't let them bully you. But know if she is forced to be your daughters teacher it could be hell.

[Kazalphaville 1,813]

Beuel, it's nothing to do with being PC. It's everything to do with human rights. Why should a child (or an adult come to that) be treated any differently just because they are differently abled? Why should they be excluded for something that is not their fault? Why should they be labelled for the rest of their lives as "special needs" or "disabled" (a term I hate actually) just because they went to a "special school"? Everyone has a valid contribution to make to society, given half the chance. Public spending has to be adjusted to accomodate this. It is manageable, if you want it.

 

DaveyB, many kids come to school with shit social skills (I know from experience and I deal with this every day). Should we wait and have them assessed and reassessed until someone deems them ready? How do we deem them ready? I know, and I'm sure everyone does, many adults with shit social skills. Hardly a fair judgement of a child's school readiness. Shit social skills or not, they come to school when they're 6 and we have to deal with it.

[katheliz 17,879]

Devil's Advocate joining in. All of us know our children, and we believe we know their various abilities. But testers and teachers know hundreds of children and they're trained to recognize patterns of behavior and to compare individual children to recognized standards.

 

Daughter #1 was born five days - five days!!! - after the California cut-off date for school entry. She'd been in a combined KG - 2st Grade classroom in a private school with a loving teacher and twenty students. She'd done fine there. I couldn't afford the school anymore and I was a full-time college student, and it was essential to me that my daughter be in school all day. We went through tests and evaluations and even a medical exam, and ultimately I'd made myself unpleasant enough that my little girl was placed in first grade.

 

At first things went well, but as the years passed, everything I'd been told would happen did happen. My girlie was unhappy in school, cried, changed from a happykins to a sad creature who, by sixth grade, was underachieving. Some of this could have happened anyhow - there were other issues that appeared with time.

 

We all love our children, except for the wolf parents out there who give real wolves a bad name. And sometimes maintaining their happiness entails listening with an open mind to people whose lives have been devoted to numerous children, not one or two.

 

EDIT: Of course, I wouldn't have had any of those warnings if she'd been born on December 2, the cut-off date, and the behaviors would still have occurred. My point is that psychologists, teachers and counselors are more likely right than wrong.

[DaveyB2uk 69]

 

Shit social skills or not, they come to school when they're 6 and we have to deal with it.

 

Agreed...but surely trying to give extra support if someone does have "shit social skills" is a good thing, isn't it?

[Kazalphaville 1,813]

Yeah, I do that everyday of my working life Katheliz. Think I kind of know what I'm talking about.

[Kazalphaville 1,813]

Extra support Davey, yes. Extra testing and putting a child and family through the mill just because the teacher/school/whatever wants an easy life, no. So, say said child does the extra testing and is found to be lacking in social skills (however they define that), what will they do then? However it turns out, child starts school at 6 (OK, 7 at a push, just delaying the inevitable) regardless of its social skills. It's just a fact of life.

[Kazalphaville 1,813]

 

My point is that psychologists, teachers and counselors are more likely right than wrong.

 

Yeah, we are

 

Seriously, you can't always trust what they say (putting myself out for a ribbing here). Some have their own agenda. Happens more in places where they have a say in what age and time a child should start school, I've found in my own experience. Sometimes parents have a gut feeling about how caring and supportive a school and/or teacher is and should go with that. My reckoning is you know your child's social skills and emotional behaviour better than I do (although not in a whole class setting) and should be up front about it. I know your child's academic performance levels better than you do and I will be up front about it, whether you like it or not. You take care of your child's primary social development and I'll do the other stuff, starting from the good work you've already put in (individualisation). Work together and job's a good'un. Which is why I still feel a child's social skill level is not a good reason for retesting them, if that is the case. That kind of behaviour can be learnt from and supported by a caring teacher who knows how to deal with it in a safe and secure classroom environment.

[Loewenherz 316]

 

Beuel, it's nothing to do with being PC. It's everything to do with human rights. Why should a child (or an adult come to that) be treated any differently just because they are differently abled? Why should they be excluded for something that is not their fault? Why should they be labelled for the rest of their lives as "special needs" or "disabled" (a term I hate actually) just because they went to a "special school"? Everyone has a valid contribution to make to society, given half the chance. Public spending has to be adjusted to accomodate this. It is manageable, if you want it.

 

Human rights - yes, but for all. Mentally disabled children should have the right to learn in an environment suited to their needs. So called normal children should have the right to not be disturbed by children which simply do not fit to the standard teaching, and to get share fair of teacher's time and attention. Yes, you could make the learning environment suitable to mentally disabled children, but then the others will not necessarily benefit from it, so what's the point?

 

I'm speaking from experience - my son went to school with several children with special needs. That was not good for anybody, really - those special needs children needed more than the teachers could give them, but that "not enough" was already most of teachers' time.

 

I also wasn't very fond of the occasional bite-mark on my son :blink:

[Kazalphaville 1,813]

Only works when there is a support system in place that is planned to cater for it. A child with a heavy special needs situation should have a full-time 1-1 support with them anyway. That requires money and training. Not saying it's easy - far from it - but it can be successful if the right resources are in place. What do you mean by "standard teaching"? Teaching should be differentiated, not standardised.

[muchado 158]

I am a teacher and I agree a 100% with Kazaphalville.

Our daughter's kindergarten teacher has mentioned more than once that one particular child needs to be in a special school because of some issues. I sat in the classroom for 45 min. every day last week and saw that she didn't take from any kid except for crying every now and then and being unable to explain why. She is 5. Why should she go to a special school? Oh, that would make life easier for the teachers.

[Kazalphaville 1,813]

Precisely. If all the usual reasons for that kind of behaviour had been checked and excluded, that then would be a reason for extra testing. Maybe communication problems (selective mutism or so) but, even then, those can be dealt with in a mainstream classroom with the right approaches. But fact is, 5 year olds cry.

 

Am more concerned that the kindergarten teacher is making comments like that in public.

[AngelicSound 10]

I can understand the Frustration with the School System. We had many issues this year. We moved here in October with our son who turned 6 last May, is is also very tall for his Age so I have been told. He had attened Kindergarden and 3 months of 1st grade in the US when we moved here. By that time he was reading Level 1 and 2 books as well as able to write full sentences. Before we moved I did my homework and my husband and neighbor had talked with the head master at the local schule that my son would Need to attend. (We were informed due to him turning 6 last May he is legally required to be in School, though that does not nessisarily mean year 1. If they deem a child not ready for year one but of the Age for mandatory School they are required by law to attend a kindergarten/volschule) I was worried about him being made to go to kindergarten since he had gone to 3 months of first grade in the US but I was told that would not be an issue. We even recieved a glowing email from the headmaster informing us IN ENGLISH that she was excited about our Arrival and that they look Forward to having my son start their School in mid October.

 

Fast Forward a few months to October when we arrive. My husband and the neighbor went to the School to find out where my sons class would be and when they wanted him to start. Well, the headmaster informed them, without even Meeting my son, that the teacher had decided her class had progressed to far for him to join. The teacher thought that he would not be able to catch up. They tried to explain that though my son did not speak much German he could already read and write and we were willing to get him extra help after School. (we already had a Lady who was going to work with him in the afternoons) She did not care and again did not even want to see my son and instead told us he had to go to kindergarten. IT was already October and as we had been told my her previously that he would be attending year one via the email we did not look into any Kindergartens. Also as many of you already living here know getting a spot is hard, let alone one after the School year has started. After many trips to Schools and phone calls and a frusterated post I put on here we finally got him a spot in a local kindergarten.

 

Fast Forward a few more months. My son goes to kindergarten 8-12 and 2 days a week he is part of a Special class at the local gunderschule. The excuse for putting him there was for language but honestly the teachers there refuse to make him speak German and they also don't take ANY time to work with him...when I say work with him I mean like sit and read a book in German with him or Play a German word game with him. (I know this because my daughter goes to this School as well and I have become good firends with her teacher and she told me. so, this is not me being a crazy mom. )Instead they do almost 100% free Play with the teachers basicly talking amongst themselves or just being Babysitters, you would think you were in a warzone Walking in the School with all the cloths and toys all over the place and Kids running up and down the stairs. My friend the teacher also gets upset that they have never done anything to help him integrate better with the other Kids or help the other Kids get to know him. Instead he was sevearaly bullied , mind you he is much bigger and a head taller then ALL the Kids in the class so it is not that he can't stand up for himself. We taught him at a Young Age that you walk away and NEVER hit or push someone smaller then you and the only time you do anything is if your life is in danger. (I am a proud Mama to find out he did for almost 3 months walk away from every shove, Punch, face push in the mud, ganged up and pushed under cusions where they then jumpped on him, etc. Only after 3 months did he finally raise his fist and Punch the worst offender of the bunch and then it was only after he was Punch walked away talked to the teacher who did nothing and punched a second time. After that he was left alone go figure hahaha) Despite my son being the one being bullied the Kids often blammed him for everything including accusing him of being a bully. Even though his own teacher telling me he always would walk away my friend let me know my son was constantly getting yelled at, one Point he was even yanked off a chair by the arm. There was also a lot of other crap going on at the School so I guess it was just my luck that we got in the one kindergarten that had all the Drama mamas and the mess of the adminstartion/teachers. To tell you how bad it was the headmaster who just started at this School in Sept was actually fired last month. Despite all the bad stuff about kindergarten including him being totally bored there were some good things. He did get one REALLY good friend in the midst of all of that craziness who Comes over 2 to 3 times a week. He has also been over to 3 other Boys homes. In feb. I talked with a two of the mothers of Kids who Play with my son about the language issues and they now take the time to talk to him only in German and make him respond to them in German. This has helped 100% he actally was talking in full sentances in German last week with his friends. As far as the School prep class goes the teacher tells me he is super smart and bored in the class, go figure.

 

He did take the test in March despite being told he was not on the list to go to the School next year. After he was done the person was shocked and said he was super smart and did not understand why he was in kindergarten. (honestly I am his mom and I can tell you he is not super smart its just that he already knows to read and write bc he learned that 2 years ago in the US LOL but hey if they want to say that so be it) They also made him go to a Special doctor who basicly gave him the same test with the same scores and the same Response. At their School ALL the children go to a Special 1 and 1/2 hour class at the gunderschule where they broke them into smaller Groups and they did some School like stuff, I am told it was a way they could evaluate the childs readiness for School. For some reason, i guess due to him still not being listed as attending the School next year,depsite the headmaster and teachers telling us he must attend their School next year, he was put in a Group with mostly younger 5 year olds who he said were very annoying bc they could not sit still and kept bothering the teacher. We have our appointment with the Headmaster tomorrow morning and will get the final answer as to what will happen with him next year.

 

All that said, as hurt as I am that he was held back, I know he will be better off next year with a teacher who actually wants to work with him and a best friend who will be in his class.

 

My Points to put to you....first are you sure everyone is not coming to this day at the School as stated above my sons School had all Kids who might attend year one next year come to a Special class like Setting at the School. If t really is just a few kids don't take offence to the extra appointment for your child as she is being given an extra opportunity to be evaluated. If she had been in Kindergarten the teachers could have vouged for her ability to socialize but since she was not they are giving her another Chance with a longer period of time to evaluate her instead of coming out and just saying NO she is not ready. As much as we know our children many mothers, I am not saying you are one of them, tend to have blinders on when it Comes to their own child. Some of them ts a matter of pride and as the School adminstartion does not know you personally to know you are not one of those mothers they can not take your word for your daughters shyness being temporary. (I wish they would have given our son a Chance at evaluation when we arrived so they could have seen what every else that has met him has seen) I would suggest if you child took any Special activites like Dance or a Sport that you get a letter from the instructer about your childs ability to socialize and participate. As far as sending her to Kindergarten, unfortunatly if the School chooses to say she is not ready according to what I was told about the Age law you would legally be required to send her to kindergarten next year. I feel your pain if you have to do that and just warn that you do a lot of homework on the Kindergartens if you have to go that route. As far as your daughter being one of the oldest and tallest if she doesnt get in this year I woudl not worry. I am told most Boys don't start until 7 years old and about 1/2 the Girls are 7. Don't lose hope I know the System can get frustrating and sometimes it's easy to jump on the defense with the crazy things they but honestly most of them just have the best intreast of the child at heart. The main issue with their School System as I have been told and witnessed so far is that they tend to have square holes and expect all Kids to be squares and fit in the holes so if you get a round kid, year they fit but they have no idea what to do with them. Good Luck!

[Guest]

Just some observations (from the Hamburg area so might not apply to your area) :

German parents sometimes want to make sure their children will fit in socially before they get dumped in a big class to increase chances of making it to Gymnasium and also to reduce stress for the child. Especially if they have a bright, non-pushy, well-mannered child it's a big concern throwing them in with over 20 sometimes mean-acting children.

German teachers notice a big difference in ease of managing children who have German Kita or Vorschule experience to those who have not when they teach first grade and appreciate it when the child comes to their class already broken in so to speak.

If your child does not get into grade 1 at the time you want then possible options might be either a private school with smaller classes to keep on the schedule you want or consider next year going straight to Grade 2 at a public school (skip grade one) to prevent boredom for your child.

Yes, academically keeping preschoolers home and privately tutored is much much better but what the German educators and preschool people care about is socialization so they can obey and be herded. They're really big on that socialization thing. And the scissor thing.

I hope you can find a Kita or Vorschule, if your child must in the situation attend, that fits better to your child's needs and interests and has children with similar interests and which children will go to he same school as your child.